# Asimov, the serial harasser **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 7, 2020, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094 "2020-01-07T21:57:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/101 "2020-01-11T17:44:11Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > After Alfred Bester died in 1987, Asimov wrote this about Bester: > > "In any case, he always gave me the biggest hello it was possible to hand out… He enclosed me in a bear hug and kissed me on the cheek. And occasionally, if I had my back to him, he did not hesitate to goose me. > > This discomfited me in two ways. First, it was a direct physical discomfiture. I am not used to being immobilized by a hug and then kissed,and I am certainly not used to being goosed. > > **A more indirect discomfiture and a much worse one was my realization that just as I approached Alfie very warily when I saw him before he saw me, it might be possible that young woman approached me just as warily, for I will not deny to you that I have long acted on the supposition that hugging, kissing, and goosing was a male prerogative, provided young women (and not aging males) were the target. You have no idea how it spoiled things to me when I couldn’t managed to forget that the young women might be edging away.**" (bolding mine). > > Urgh… > > Like Derleth, I won’t stop reading Asimov, but I won’t deny that he failed a basic test of decency. “You have no idea how it spoiled things to me when I couldn’t managed to forget that the young women might be edging away.” “Couldn’t managed”? Can I assume this isn’t a direct Asimov quote? ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/102 "2020-01-11T17:58:33Z")
> [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > “You have no idea how it spoiled things to me when I couldn’t managed to forget that the young women might be edging away.” > > “Couldn’t managed”? Can I assume this isn’t a direct Asimov quote? Asimov quote - mistyped by me… Link to excerpt from the original place that Asimov piece was published [Nebula Awards: SFWA's Choices for the Best Science Fiction and Fantasy 1987 - Google Books](https://books.google.com/books?id=VDgOAQAAMAAJ&q=%22+young+women+might+be+edging+away%22&dq=%22+young+women+might+be+edging+away%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiAsNDJj_zmAhUjc98KHT7iAsYQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg) - doesn’t have my typo… ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/103 "2020-01-11T18:20:34Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > You seem to be taking my ([not unique](https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/reviews/0062444131/ref=cm_cr_unknown?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=one_star&pageNumber=1)) low opinion of her writing skills extremely personally for some reason. Hahahhaha, you actually linked to an Amazon comment page? Which one is your comment, Darren, is it the _very angry_ SJW one? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/104 "2020-01-11T18:34:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s spiffy keen. Given her interest in xenobiology and sociology, the issue lies with you, not her. And her ability to write characters with complex emotions is, for most readers, a feature and not a bug–although your inclination to see it otherwise does explain your appreciation for Asimov! I’ve no opinion on Chambers one way or the other, but the idea that if someone doesn’t like a particular work of art, there must be something wrong with them, is terribly toxic. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/105 "2020-01-11T18:57:23Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > We live in a period in which groups who could not in the past make their voices heard are finally speaking very loudly and publicly. The pendulum always swings to extremes. If you don’t like this period, too bad. It’s going to go on for a while. Tbh, I don’t really see anything “extreme” about the attitude that sexually assaulting and harassing nonconsenting people is bad, that the assaulters/harassers of yesteryear were doing something wrong even though they got away with it, and that it’s okay to criticize the assaulter/harassers of yesteryear, as well as the assaulters/harassers of today, for their bad behavior. It’s possible that the “Me Too”/“Time’s Up” etc. movements may eventually morph into counterproductive extremism. But merely calling out asshole behavior and denouncing those who commit it, even “very loudly and publicly”, is fine. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/106 "2020-01-11T19:13:42Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’ve no opinion on Chambers one way or the other, but the idea that if someone doesn’t like a particular work of art, there must be something wrong with them, is terribly toxic. That’s not at all what I’m saying, though. It’s the reasons offered for the dislike that are revealing, in much the same way that people who dislike the new Star Wars trilogy because it features a female protagonist reveal a lot more about themselves than a simple dislike for the series does. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/107 "2020-01-11T19:18:21Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Hahahhaha, you actually linked to an Amazon comment page? Which one is your comment, Darren, is it the _very angry_ SJW one? I’m good with [this](https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RPU80FMZU8PEA/) one. And [this](https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R2BJ5KK0BJGKEW/) one. And [this](https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RTEMX6RGTLEGS/). And [this](https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/). And [this](https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R32Z46JKX8C0P8/). And [this](https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R22KK6A6XVYZ42/). And [this](https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R2F8N4PCHXNK54/). (And not on Amazon, but I reiterate that [this](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22074893&postcount=93) hits the nail straight on the head.) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/108 "2020-01-11T19:19:44Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Tbh, I don’t really see anything “extreme” about the attitude that sexually assaulting and harassing nonconsenting people is bad, that the assaulters/harassers of yesteryear were doing something wrong even though they got away with it, and that it’s okay to criticize the assaulter/harassers of yesteryear, as well as the assaulters/harassers of today, for their bad behavior. > > It’s possible that the “Me Too”/“Time’s Up” etc. movements may eventually morph into counterproductive extremism. But merely calling out asshole behavior and denouncing those who commit it, even “very loudly and publicly”, is fine. How you managed to read something negative about “Me Too”/“Time’s Up” into my comment is beyond me. The pendulum swinging is overall a good thing. But of course there has also been some counterproductive extremism. Humans are involved, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/109 "2020-01-11T19:46:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I see nothing flawed about a couple choosing how to end their lives. Sure. However, is there any indication her spouse wanted to be killed? The only information that he wanted to die comes from her. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/110 "2020-01-11T19:55:43Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > How you managed to read something negative about “Me Too”/“Time’s Up” into my comment is beyond me. The pendulum swinging is overall a good thing. But of course there has also been some counterproductive extremism. Humans are involved, after all. I think she was commenting on the OP, which I appreciated. While Asimov’s behavior may have been well known among authors and con-goers, I was not in his circle or old enough to go to cons. Happy Birthday, Mr. Asimov. You were a cad. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/111 "2020-01-11T20:50:50Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s not at all what I’m saying, though. It’s the reasons offered for the dislike that are revealing, in much the same way that people who dislike the new Star Wars trilogy because it features a female protagonist reveal a lot more about themselves than a simple dislike for the series does. I’m not seeing anything in the criticisms of Chambers here that lends itself to that comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/112 "2020-01-11T21:09:34Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > But of course there has also been some counterproductive extremism. Like what, exactly? I mean, I’ve seen a few **individual** “Me Too”-type accusations that I thought were misplaced or unjustified. But that’s what I’d expect to see for any reasonable, non-extremist social condemnation of bad behavior: occasionally, some individuals’ behavior is going to be unfairly misidentified as bad. That’s not “extremism”, that’s just normal human error. If our criterion for avoiding “counterproductive extremism” is that no well-meaning person **ever** gets mistakenly accused of bad behavior, then I think the problem is in fact counterproductive timidity and defensiveness rather than “extremism”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/113 "2020-01-11T21:22:18Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m not seeing anything in the criticisms of Chambers here that lends itself to that comparison. :shrug. Okay. I do. I don’t want to stay on a Chambers focus here, though; I only brought her up as a handful of modern authors who can write circles around Asimov, and Darren got his sneer on about her. If someone really wants a Chambers discussion, I’m happy to oblige over in Cafe Society. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/114 "2020-01-11T23:38:37Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I only brought her up as a handful of modern authors who can write circles around Asimov, and Darren got his sneer on about her. I’m just saying that if you read a book by one of the Past (or Pastish) Giants like Asimov, Heinlein, Clarke etc. you can really tell that they are well educated in the physical sciences and math and were passionate about getting details right as long as they didn’t mess with the impossibilities needed for the story. If you read Becky Chambers, you can really tell that she watched lots of broadcast network SF in the 1900s-2000s. There is no depth to her writing in _any_ field, hard science _or_ social. I can think of many, _many_ modern authors that can write circles around Asimov (I take no issue with your other mentions) but Becky Chambers couldn’t write circles around a 1990s MySpace _Friends_ fan-fiction page. And that isn’t misogyny, it isn’t anti-LGBT, it isn’t anti-progressive, it is pure old fashioned intellectual snobbery. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/115 "2020-01-11T23:41:35Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > I think she was commenting on the OP, which I appreciated. (Sorry for the hijack, Sunny–I haven’t commented on it because I’m one of the ones for whom it was really old news. But I’ve never been one to idolize content creators instead of their creation.) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/116 "2020-01-11T23:52:40Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > It’s interesting that so many people here seem to be just learning this about Asimov. Insiders have known about this forever. Asimov’s behavior at conventions, which contribute most of the anecdotes, occurred when the Worldcon, the largest annual sf convention, drew fewer than 500 attendees. Regional conventions were much smaller. The same faces were seen over and over, much like an extended family. The same code that applies to bad behaviors within families apparently was standard in this small world of fandom and writers, a hugely overlapping grouping. > > When Worldcons got bigger - they hit 1500 in 1967 and then doubled and tripled - the big-name authors could no longer mingle as equals. They hid away from their adulators and mixed with other authors except when on public display. At about the same time, Asimov married Janet Jeppson and from all I’ve heard, his bad behavior toward other women drastically declined. Does that mitigate what he had done for the previous two decades? Not for me to say, but it’s fascinating from a biographer/historian’s perspective. > … > Treat Asimov any way you please. His sins are well documented. Maybe though, just maybe, pause a moment before you move on to the next author and wonder if documentation is the only difference between them. It’s easy for insiders to know this side of the man, but if they don’t write about it or call him on it, how does the average sf reader know about it? You obviously know the area better than most, so if it’s well-documented, so be it. But oddly, there has been nothing in the Wikipedia article on Asimov until just recently. From the talk page, there seems to have been reluctance to include it in the wiki article, which sounds like a conspiracy of silence approach by the sf community. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/117 "2020-01-12T01:30:41Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Like what, exactly? I mean, I’ve seen a few **individual** “Me Too”-type accusations that I thought were misplaced or unjustified. But that’s what I’d expect to see for any reasonable, non-extremist social condemnation of bad behavior: occasionally, some individuals’ behavior is going to be unfairly misidentified as bad. That’s not “extremism”, that’s just normal human error. > > If our criterion for avoiding “counterproductive extremism” is that no well-meaning person **ever** gets mistakenly accused of bad behavior, then I think the problem is in fact counterproductive timidity and defensiveness rather than “extremism”. The renaming of the James Tiptree Award was an extreme reaction, for one. The resignation of the entire board of the Romance Writers of America, followed this week by the resignation of the new president and executive director, and the possible blow-up of a 9000 person organization occurred because [a member of their Board of Ethics took offense to being told she couldn’t call another member the author of a racist book](https://www.npr.org/2020/01/09/795002052/romance-writers-of-america-leadership-resigns). That’s two major overturnings of well-meaning literary-related groups in the past couple of months. If you don’t believe that the larger society is seeing 100 of these every week, I have to politely tell you that your opinions on the subject aren’t worth much. I an NOT saying that there were not legitimate gripes, although it must also be said that the responses also seem legitimate. My point is that both of these particular cases could have been handled much better by both sides. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > It’s easy for insiders to know this side of the man, but if they don’t write about it or call him on it, how does the average sf reader know about it? You obviously know the area better than most, so if it’s well-documented, so be it. But oddly, there has been nothing in the Wikipedia article on Asimov until just recently. From the talk page, there seems to have been reluctance to include it in the wiki article, which sounds like a conspiracy of silence approach by the sf community. I have absolutely no knowledge of whatever is going on at Wikipedia. However, in general, from my half century of experience inside sf, I’d laugh at the notion that the sf community has a conspiracy of silence about anything, or that the sf community is even possible of being silent about anything. I would say instead, loudly, that the sf community has never been listened to for one second about anything ever. If the mainstream world is just finding out about Asimov it ain’t none of our doing. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/118 "2020-01-12T01:49:23Z")
Can you point me to published accounts of Asimov’s behaviour, then, by members of the sf community? ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/119 "2020-01-12T02:28:24Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The renaming of the James Tiptree Award was an extreme reaction, for one. The resignation of the entire board of the Romance Writers of America, followed this week by the resignation of the new president and executive director, and the possible blow-up of a 9000 person organization occurred because [a member of their Board of Ethics took offense to being told she couldn’t call another member the author of a racist book](https://www.npr.org/2020/01/09/795002052/romance-writers-of-america-leadership-resigns). \ This is a vast over-simplification of the situation with RWA. The issues there have been festering for years. Forcing out part of the Board, creating an off-books ethics process, appointing a new president who invented at least one of the books on his CV and did not meet the criteria for office, all of these things were factors. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/120 "2020-01-12T02:46:30Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > His characters were barely one-dimensional. His plots are ludicrous. In **Foundation** , there are like three female characters, who have less than three pages of the book, and less than five lines of dialogue (one of which is something about how the future will bring marvels like “nuclear laundries,” which through the power of the split atom will be able to fit inside a closet). Yes, _Foundation_ is mainly male characters, but that’s balanced by _Foundation and Empire_ and _Second Foundation_, where the key characters are both women. if I remember the laundry system correctly, it was an illustration of how efficient the industries of Terminus and the First Foundation had become, compared to the huge inefficient systems of the Empire, a point repeated more grandly in the first half of _Foundation and Empire_. One of the principles of the Sheldon plan was that the First Foundationwas the technical pole, which waouldcdevelopmtechnologies that far surpassed the declining Empire. The laundry was simply one example of the first Foundationbsucceeding. > [@](#): > > One of his novels features a far-future society ruled by a despot, and someone is seeking plans to a superweapon from earth’s past that can bring down despots. They finally find and open the plans, and the last sentence of the book is the beginning of the plans: “When in the course of human events it becomes necessary…” _The Stars, Like Dust_. True, the McGuffin is pretty silly (product of the early Cold War and the beginning of the US role as a superpower, I always thought), but the rest of the book actually hangs together without the McGuffin (it was the US Constitution, by the way, not the Declaration of Independence). However, Asimov would agree with you on this one. In _A Memory Yet Green_, he says it was his least favorite novel. Blamed the McGuffin on advice by his editor, who suggested the sub-plot. Youthful inexperience: he was 31 and it was one of his first novels. > [@](#): > > The dude was an atrocious hack. A tremendous hack who managed to write what was considered by the Science Fiction Writers of America the best sf trilogy of all time (Foundation), _and_ the best sf novella/ short story of all time (_Nightfall_). I should be such a hack. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094.md?page=7)