# Asimov, the serial harasser **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 7, 2020, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094 "2020-01-07T21:57:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/121 "2020-01-12T03:08:03Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Can you point me to published accounts of Asimov’s behaviour, then, by members of the sf community? Do you mean in print media, or [will blogs do](https://the-orbit.net/almostdiamonds/2012/09/09/we-dont-do-that-anymore/)? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/122 "2020-01-12T03:32:11Z")
Anything. Thanks, this is excellent. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/123 "2020-01-12T03:38:50Z")
Let’s try that again, with fewer typos. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > If I remember the laundry system correctly, it was an illustration of how efficient the industries of Terminus and the First Foundation had become, compared to the huge inefficient systems of the Empire, a point repeated more grandly in the first half of _Foundation and Empire_. One of the principles of the Sheldon plan was that the First Foundation was the technical pole, which would develop technologies that far surpassed the declining Empire. The laundry was simply one example of the First Foundation succeeding. (By the way, Asimov’s recently discovered plot notes for _The Big Foundation Theory_ show that Sheldon was planned to be one of Hari’s far-distant ancestors.) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/124 "2020-01-12T04:11:38Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > This is a vast over-simplification of the situation with RWA. The issues there have been festering for years. Forcing out part of the Board, creating an off-books ethics process, appointing a new president who invented at least one of the books on his CV and did not meet the criteria for office, all of these things were factors. Which was why I wrote, “I an NOT saying that there were not legitimate gripes…” The new president was an obvious mistake, and should never have been in the line of succession. But that was post-debacle. My question to you is whether you really want to argue that no extreme overreactions are ever taking place at all. And also please to note that while I deplore extreme overreactions, I am also saying that they are inevitable and are an absolutely normal part of the process of suddenly being freed to speak out against previous injustices. America was founded on one. It would be quite amazing if the extremes didn’t occur. But I am too old and too cynical to believe for a second that could be true. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/125 "2020-01-12T06:04:20Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > While Asimov’s behavior may have been well known among authors and con-goers, I was not in his circle or old enough to go to cons. Happy Birthday, Mr. Asimov. You were a cad. Another thing about discussing bad attitudes and behavior from authors is that you can keep it in mind when examining the author’s work. When I was a kid I read a LOT of Asimov, both fiction and non-fiction. And I definitely think I internalized some of his attitude towards women for a while, and didn’t really realize the ‘boys club’ type stuff doesn’t fly all that well until I got called out on some inappropriate behaviors. If I had a kid (especially a boy) who was reading a lot of Asimov now, I would make a point to talk about how Asimov’s attitudes and actions towards women are more than a little inappropriate in today’s world. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/126 "2020-01-12T06:18:36Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The renaming of the James Tiptree Award was an extreme reaction, for one. The resignation of the entire board of the Romance Writers of America, followed this week by the resignation of the new president and executive director, and the possible blow-up of a 9000 person organization occurred because [a member of their Board of Ethics took offense to being told she couldn’t call another member the author of a racist book](https://www.npr.org/2020/01/09/795002052/romance-writers-of-america-leadership-resigns). This is a complete and utter mischaracterization of what happened with the RWA. The leadership of the RWA went directly against their own policies and procedures in their censure of the ‘member of their board of ethics’ and issued contradictory stories. This brought not just a ‘few gripes’ but major complaints about a variety of bigoted actions from RWA to head, as well as ethical and fiscal misconduct by the board. Trying to put the blame on a person who called out another author for using racist stereotypes in a book instead of the huge pattern of gross misconduct in the leadership of the RWA is completely and utterly incorrect. Here’s a timeline of all that has gone on: [The Implosion of the RWA | Claire Ryan](https://www.claireryanauthor.com/blog/2019/12/27/the-implosion-of-the-rwa) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/127 "2020-01-12T07:54:42Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Sure. However, is there any indication her spouse wanted to be killed? The only information that he wanted to die comes from her. There’s a whole history to their suicide pact that makes it clear she was waiting for him to want it. I’ve seen no indication in what I’ve read that she suddenly snapped instead. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/128 "2020-01-12T08:01:04Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > BTW, after a gigantic controversy about Tiptree murder/suicide of her ailing husband, the Tiptree Award had to be renamed. Here’s an [earlier statement](https://otherwiseaward.org/2019/09/alice-sheldon-and-the-name-of-the-tiptree-award) from the committee about it. That was in September. In October, it was renamed the Otherwise Award. Hey, if we’re expanding our horizons to talk about the failures of people other than Asimov, let’s _expand_ our goddamned _horizons_. [Marion Zimmer Bradley](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_Zimmer_Bradley) was allegedly a kiddie-fucker: > [@](#): > > Marion Eleanor Zimmer Bradley (June 3, 1930 – September 25, 1999) was an American author of fantasy, historical fantasy, science fiction, and science fantasy novels, and is best known for the Arthurian fiction novel The Mists of Avalon, and the Darkover series. While she is noted for her feminist perspective in her writing,[1]:28–29 her popularity has been posthumously marred by multiple accusations against her of child sexual abuse and rape by two of her children, Mark and Moira Greyland, and others. She married [Walter H. Breen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_H._Breen), a convicted kiddie-fucker: > [@](#): > > Walter H. Breen Jr. (September 5, 1928 – April 27, 1993) was an American numismatist, writer, LGBT rights activist and convicted child sex offender, and the husband of author Marion Zimmer Bradley. He is known among coin collectors for writing _Walter Breen’s Complete Encyclopedia of U.S. and Colonial Coins_. “Breen numbers”, from his encyclopedia, are widely used to attribute varieties of coins. He is also known for activity in the science fiction fan community and for his writings in defense of pederasty. The SF community briefly blackballed Breen, but Bradley didn’t, and might have covered for him: > [@](#): > > Breen was initially convicted of child molestation or lewd behavior in Atlantic City in 1954, resulting in a probationary sentence.[6][10] During science fiction fandom’s “Breendoggle” of 1963–1964, Breen was banned from attending Pacificon II and briefly blackballed from the subculture’s main amateur press association after allegations of further sex crimes surfaced.[10] Nevertheless, prominent fans of the era such as John Boardman, perhaps unaware of Breen’s prior conviction, dismissed the allegations as hearsay and “character assassination,” and the scandal blew over.[11] Shortly thereafter, Breen married Bradley, who was cognizant of his behavior[10] but chose not to report him. A further molestation conviction may have occurred in 1964.[6] With Bradley and Breen it isn’t even ambiguous: They were unrepentant child molesters. So, how much of their work is tainted? Bradley helped found the SCA, for example, and then there’s Breen’s numismatic work. I’m sure more serious fans could go through and list things each of them did or even founded which didn’t make it into the briefish Wikipedia articles on each of them. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/129 "2020-01-12T13:57:23Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I’m just saying Again, I think you’re incredibly wrong, but the appropriate venue for this discussion ain’t this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/130 "2020-01-12T14:11:44Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/131 "2020-01-12T17:27:32Z")
_Fifteen years ago_, this thread appeared on the Dope. [Robert Silverberg, you suck.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=301390) ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/132 "2020-01-12T18:01:41Z")
It seems to me that the difference there is the absolutely horrid elements in the story, more than Silverburg’s personal life. Similarly, I find Heinlein extremely unpleasant to read, because he has certain themes around women and family that I find distasteful. I think the MZB comes closer to an example of the type of quandry that is presented by “author (artist) doing bad things.” I’ve been thinking about it some more, and I find that I am more willing to excuse older authors: go back 100 years or so, and I am much more understanding about “the mores of the times” as an excuse. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/133 "2020-01-12T19:20:45Z")
I’ve probably not read any SilverBob for 40 years. Somehow I don’t feel like re-reading the oeuvres of classic SF authors to find evidence of religious-sexual-ethnic-social intolerance. Thus I needn’t judge whether they wrote their own beliefs, or for the editors they sold to, or what they thought their audiences wanted and would pay to read. A great burden is lifted from my shoulders. I can return to news items of political leaders much worse than most SF authors. I can page back from the nastier bits but they don’t go away. It’s a horror-nightmare IRL. HP Lovecraft can’t compete with reality. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/134 "2020-01-12T22:30:13Z")
I wasn’t around for the early days of fandom, so somehow I haven’t been exposed to that side of things. It is disappointing to know that nor only were big names in the fieldv doing these things, but that the community was not only condoning but encouraging it. I know, mores of the times and all that blah blah. But what’s more troubling is to see piss-poor reactions to contemporary events. We in Fandom have to be better at calling it out, and as leaders of groups in how we handle the situations. As far as Asimov goes, he was not really a hero of mine, so it’s not really a fall from grace. More a case of someone I had reason to respect deserving less of it. I think we can still look at an artist’s works for how they stand and what they mean without ignoring that the artist was a flawed human being. That said, I do find myself less interested in hearing Michael Jackson on the radio. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ecks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bcef8e/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ecks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ecks)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/135 "2020-01-12T23:52:35Z")
There’s a book called “Astounding: John Campbell, Isaac Asimov, Robert Heinlein, and L. Ron Hubbard” that serves as a history of the magazine and a group biography of Campbell and the others. While it was a good read, it kind of showed that you should never meet your heroes. Asimov was described as an awkward youth who discovered in middle age that his fame meant that all he had to do to get sex was ask- so he asked and asked and asked… Campbell was a gullible racist, eternally disappointed that technological innovation didn’t actually work like it did in the stories he published, and we all know what became of L. Ron. Good book, for all that. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/136 "2020-01-13T00:41:41Z")
That book is written by Alec Nevala-Lee, was the author of the article linked in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/137 "2020-01-13T10:52:30Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The renaming of the James Tiptree Award was an extreme reaction, for one. Well, the Tiptree murder-suicide AFAICT had jack-shit to do with the “Me Too”/“Time’s Up”/etc. movement that I was talking about. > [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > The resignation of the entire board of the Romance Writers of America Other posters have already pointed out your mischaracterization of this issue, to which I’ll just add that it likewise doesn’t involve sexual assault/harassment and thus is, again, unrelated to the movement I was talking about. > [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > That’s two major overturnings of well-meaning literary-related groups in the past couple of months. Neither of which was related to the current “Me Too”/“Time’s Up”/etc. movement against sexually harassing/assaulting nonconsenting people, which was the subject of my posts. > [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > If you don’t believe that the larger society is seeing 100 of these every week, I have to politely tell you that your opinions on the subject aren’t worth much. Coming from somebody who apparently can’t come up with even one example of “counterproductive extremism” that’s actually relevant to the claims I was questioning, that doesn’t inspire a lot of confidence in your ability to evaluate the usefulness of other people’s opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/138 "2020-01-13T13:08:12Z")
Yeah, the ones who think MeToo is going too far are the ones [who feel it breathing a bit too closely](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/13/nyregion/sexual-harassment-nyu-female-professor.html): > [@](#): > > The case seems like a familiar story turned on its head: Avital Ronell, a world-renowned female professor of German and Comparative Literature at New York University, was found responsible for sexually harassing a male former graduate student, Nimrod Reitman. > > [snip] > > Soon after the university made its final, confidential determination this spring, a group of scholars from around the world, including prominent feminists, sent a letter to N.Y.U. in defense of Professor Ronell. Judith Butler, the author of the book “Gender Trouble” and one of the most influential feminist scholars today, was first on the list. > > “Although we have no access to the confidential dossier, we have all worked for many years in close proximity to Professor Ronell,” the professors wrote in a draft letter posted on a philosophy blog in June. “We have all seen her relationship with students, and some of us know the individual who has waged this malicious campaign against her.” > > Critics saw the letter, with its focus on the potential damage to Professor Ronell’s reputation and the force of her personality, as echoing past defenses of powerful men. It’s hard to admit your own group has predators. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/139 "2020-01-13T13:32:48Z")
\*\*Kimstu \*\*, I agree with your reply above. Neither of the examples provided seem relevant to Me Too. \*\*Johnny Ecks \*\*, unfortunately, Asimov did more than just ask repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094/140 "2020-01-13T14:30:21Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > \*\*Kimstu \*\*, I agree with your reply above. Neither of the examples provided seem relevant to Me Too. To be fair, if **Exapno Mapcase** wants to talk about “counterproductive extremism” in other contexts besides the MeToo movement, he’s certainly free to do so. But the MeToo movement is specifically and explicitly what **I** was talking about. And I’ve still seen no evidence thus far that it’s led to any “counterproductive extremism” about combating sexual harassment (as compared to occasional individual unjustified accusations of sexual harassment). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/asimov-the-serial-harasser/846094.md?page=6)