# Ask A Catholic **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-catholic/570897 "2011-02-10T15:12:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![terryobrien80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@terryobrien80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terryobrien80)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-catholic/570897/41 "2011-02-10T17:51:28Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Individual dioceses are definitely not completely autonomous and the Vatican (remember them?) has been heavily implicated in quite a few of the cases that have come to light. I am sorry, but you are incorrect. As I said, a bishop and his diocese can be likened to the governors of states: Governors are all Americans under the same American flag and US Constitution, but no governor has any say at all in what another governor of another state does, and neither does the president. Under Canon Law the Pope cannot just come into the Arch-Diocese of Los Angeles, for example, and start calling the shots. Its just not done. In keeping with my analogy, the president can’t come to Sacramento and start ordering around the governor’s staff either. You are simply mistaken in this regard. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-catholic/570897/42 "2011-02-10T17:52:39Z")
I am a Lapsed Catholic. The main reason is due so many Catholics embracing a “social justice” theme as part of their faith. ☹ What are your thoughts on the “social justice” movement within the Catholic Church? ---
**Author:** ![terryobrien80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@terryobrien80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terryobrien80)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-catholic/570897/43 "2011-02-10T17:53:01Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by **terryobrien80** [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/images/buttons/viewpost.gif](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13451846#post13451846) > > SECOND: The VAST mojority of these cases involved boys around the age of 14 or so. That means the issue is homosexuality, not pedophelia. This is a CRUCIAL point that the media TOTALLY ignored. Why? Because the media PROMOTES the homosexual lifestyle, and they can hardly say that it caused the problem. But framing it as “pedophelia” was sure to arouse anger because people hate those who harm children (and the media hates the church I might add) and that was the spin the media gave it. > > Is this your opinion or is this a view expressed by the Catholic church? Neither. Its the stats. I’ll dig them up if you want. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-catholic/570897/44 "2011-02-10T17:55:07Z")
how many medals, scapulars or cords do you wear? are you a member of a lay order? ---
**Author:** ![Beniamino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@Beniamino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beniamino)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-catholic/570897/45 "2011-02-10T17:55:24Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Individual dioceses are definitely not completely autonomous and the Vatican (remember them?) has been heavily implicated in quite a few of the cases that have come to light. I really don’t think it has. I do remember reading a lot of wild headlines and accusations, but when the investigations turned up nothing, the stories sort of died away. I don’t recall (and I could be wrong) a single instance of the Vatican knowingly covering up a credible sexual abuse allegation. Thankfully, the alleged incidences of sexual abuse seem to have peaked in the early 1980’s, so whatever the Church has been doing in terms of “screening” priests appears to be working. It’s a horrible thing to happen to even one child, but just as God forgives us, we can forgive those misguided Bishops who handeld these accusations poorly, and even the priests themselves (though we would not want them to return to active ministry). And we have to give credit where credit is due _vis a vis_ remedial action. People will always seek out the priesthood for the wrong reasons, and no human agency will ever be able to weed them _ **all** _ out, just as no school, day care, or family can be 100% prepared for an abuser within their respective spheres. ---
**Author:** ![terryobrien80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@terryobrien80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terryobrien80)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-catholic/570897/46 "2011-02-10T17:56:20Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > I am a Lapsed Catholic. The main reason is due so many Catholics embracing a “social justice” theme as part of their faith. ☹ > > What are your thoughts on the “social justice” movement within the Catholic Church? It is no secret the Lberals are infiltrating the Church and screwing things up on the local levels. But I would ask you: Was your faith that tenuous that you let e few jugheads screw it up for you? If you TRULY believed in the Faith, you would not let them do that. To coin a phrase, “_We cannot leave Peter because of Judas_”. Watch this: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs6qZd\_xP1w](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs6qZd_xP1w) In fact, I invite all of you to watch it: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs6qZd\_xP1w](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs6qZd_xP1w) ---
**Author:** ![terryobrien80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@terryobrien80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terryobrien80)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-catholic/570897/47 "2011-02-10T17:58:25Z")
> [@johnpost](#): > > how many medals, scapulars or cords do you wear? > > are you a member of a lay order? Ah, the important stuff, eh? LOL. 1. The only thing I wear is a nice, small cross that was blessed by Pope Jogn Paul II 2. I am not a member of an order. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **jsgoddess** [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/images/buttons/viewpost.gif](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13451917#post13451917) > Individual dioceses are definitely not completely autonomous and the Vatican (remember them?) has been heavily implicated in quite a few of the cases that have come to light. Good people are always “implicated” by those who wish to destroy them. I seem to remember a certain fellow nailed to a cross… ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-catholic/570897/48 "2011-02-10T17:59:21Z")
> [@terryobrien80](#): > > Neither. Its the stats. I’ll dig them up if you want. I doubt you will be able to show statistics that prove some of the things you claim but it might be interesting. For example “Because the media PROMOTES the homosexual lifestyle” sounds like an opinion to me. An opinion you are welcome to hold if you like. My question is whether you have formulated this for yourself or is it the actual stated position of the church. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-catholic/570897/49 "2011-02-10T18:03:08Z")
> [@Beniamino](#): > > Good question. I’d tend to dismiss “emotional” argumentation right off the bat, because I think most religious people would agree that faith is not dependent on “emotion”. Moreover, argumentation from emotion is a logical fallacy. I’m never going to believe something because you tell me you _ **feel** _ that it’s true, and, while I may be “wowed” by an impassioned discourse, once the “feeling” subsides, any such discourse would have to stand on its own merits. That’s very interesting. From watching my friend who has found (or maybe returned) to her faith, it seems to me to have an emotional substratum: she is much much happier now that she has her faith. And because of that, I am happy for her. I wonder whether part of that happiness is the feeling of being cared for, as one is during childhood. Yet there is a core to faith which is utterly incomprehensible to me. I just don’t _get_ it. If it’s not logical or rational, and it’s not emotional, what is it? I said to her once that it would literally take a miracle for me to understand it, something on the order of the Divine Finger reaching down and rearranging my brain. > [@Beniamino](#): > > But, is apologetics “rational”? Here’s what the 1907 Catholic Encylcopedia has to say, at a time when the world was at the height of empiricist / positivist sway… > [http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01618a.htm](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01618a.htm) > > So, the argument itself has to be rational, and internally logically consistent, but “revelation” itself is not something that can be “proven” _a priori_, or according to Newton’s scientific method. It’s revealed. Logical argumentation might make one more or less receptive to revealed truth, but it can never convince, in and of itself, absent an act of faith assisted by the Holy Spirit. So revelation is one of the axioms of the system. Makes sense to me. If you have it, you have it, and if you don’t, you don’t, and there’s not much else that can be said about it. > [@Beniamino](#): > > But, in short, I don’t think that in 21st Century society, faith and reason are in conflict. Physicists can’t say there is no God, and theologians can’t speculate as to what might have happened, cosmologically speaking, a moment or two before the Big Bang. I wish more people got this. When people put up as articles of faith things that have actually been proven wrong, it weakens the whole intellectual authority of religion. It’s as if I said, “The sky is purple”. Not “I believe that the sky is purple”, but an actual statement of fact that the sky is purple. And you looked outside and saw that it was blue. Then you’d be less likely to believe any of the other things I say. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-catholic/570897/50 "2011-02-10T18:05:25Z")
You are all kindly invited to take the child abuse debate to [Great Debates](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=596641) to avoid derailing the genuinely MPSIMS content of this thread. Prob’ly too late though. ---
**Author:** ![terryobrien80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@terryobrien80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terryobrien80)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-catholic/570897/51 "2011-02-10T18:06:54Z")
> [@terryobrien80](#): > > Neither. Its the stats. I’ll dig them up if you want. > [@shiftless](#): > > I doubt you will be able to show statistics that prove some of the things you claim but it might be interesting. For example “Because the media PROMOTES the homosexual lifestyle” sounds like an opinion to me. An opinion you are welcome to hold if you like. My question is whether you have formulated this for yourself or is it the actual stated position of the church. _ **editing…** _ ---
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-catholic/570897/52 "2011-02-10T18:07:43Z")
> [@terryobrien80](#): > > That’s an easy one, from a Catholic perspective that is. > > Governments were created by men and are flawed. > The Church was founded by Jesus and is guided by the Holy Spirit. God guides those he chooses to teach: He guided the prophets, he guided the men who wrote the Bible, and I believe he guides the Pope and Bishops, who we consider to be the “successors” of the Apostles. > > I question man’s inventions, but not that which was established by Christ. You just opened several cans of worms. You consider the catholic church - a human organization created by human (Jesus was human even by Catholic standards), and staffed by humans and has undergone human changes for 2000 years, to be God’s invention? Was selling indulgences God’s invention? How about the crusades? The people responsible for them were being guided by God after all. I’ll let the biblical experts deal with the writing of the bible part… An actual analysis of the historical behavior of the Catholic Church would seem to demonstrate just how human it is… ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-catholic/570897/53 "2011-02-10T18:10:17Z")
> [@terryobrien80](#): > > I am sorry, but you are incorrect. As I said, a bishop and his diocese can be likened to the governors of states: Governors are all Americans under the same American flag and US Constitution, but no governor has any say at all in what another governor of another state does, and neither does the president. > > Under Canon Law the Pope cannot just come into the Arch-Diocese of Los Angeles, for example, and start calling the shots. Its just not done. In keeping with my analogy, the president can’t come to Sacramento and start ordering around the governor’s staff either. > > You are simply mistaken in this regard. The pope can remove a bishop. The pope appoints bishops. The pope directs and admonishes and supports bishops. When bishops do things the Vatican actually wants to take action on, the Vatican takes action. Let a bishop, for example, start marrying gays and see how long it takes for the Vatican to step in. It’s absolute bullshit to in any way compare this to state governors and the president. A much closer analogy is ambassadors and the president. And yeah, I know that the Vatican tries to argue, now, that they just had no idea and no ability to control those wascally bishops now that it’s a matter of record what the bishops were doing (sometimes at the behest of the Vatican) and now that the Vatican is in danger of lawsuit for their craven and despicable efforts to guarantee that RCC priests had a constant supply of ignorant victims. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-catholic/570897/54 "2011-02-10T18:12:35Z")
> [@Beniamino](#): > > I hope you’re not meaning to imply that the Catholic faith is somehow tied to political conservatism, are you? I am as pro-life as one can get; I do not believe gay marriage should be legalized; and I am concerned about the lack of morality in modern political discourse. > > I also believe in universal health care, the rights of the working class and labor unions, care for the poor and disabled, avoiding unjust wars, concern for the environment, and public transportation. > > So, sometimes my Catholic conscience causes me to vote for a Democrat, and sometimes for a Republican (albeit less so in Western Pennsylvania, where “Democrat” is a much more inclusive group than elsewhere). > > tl;dr version – _ **My question: Do I “sin” when I vote for a Democrat?** _ > > (To Dopers – this is not a silly question, there have been exhaustive threads on precisely this issue on the website cited by the OP, and I’d like to see where he’s coming from on that angle). I’d like to repeat this question. I’m not Catholic, but a close cousin (Anglican) and my political views are very similar to **Beniamino** ’s – which makes it hard to choose who to vote for, although I typically end up voting Democrat. I know conservative Anglicans who consider voting for any pro-choice candidate practically an unforgivable sin, yet do not worry about the rights of the poor or powerless. Jesus addressed one of these two issues quite often, and it wasn’t abortion… Do you find yourself identifying more closely with one political party or the other? ---
**Author:** ![Beniamino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@Beniamino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beniamino)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-catholic/570897/55 "2011-02-10T18:13:03Z")
> [@terryobrien80](#): > > It is no secret the Liberals are infiltrating the Church and screwing things up on the local levels.[…] See, that’s what I was getting at with my post #19. I don’t know if you’re drawing a distinction between the word “liberal” in the sense of “politically liberal”, e.g., concerned with social issues, or “theologically liberal”, e.g., ad-libbing the mass or other liturgical abuses. Would you mind addressing my question in post #19? ETA: or this one: > [@](#): > > **Skammer** > I’d like to repeat this question. I’m not Catholic, but a close cousin (Anglican) and my political views are very similar to Beniamino’s – which makes it hard to choose who to vote for, although I typically end up voting Democrat. I know conservative Anglicans who consider voting for any pro-choice candidate practically an unforgivable sin, yet do not worry about the rights of the poor or powerless. Jesus addressed one of these two issues quite often, and it wasn’t abortion… Do you find yourself identifying more closely with one political party or the other? ---
**Author:** ![terryobrien80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@terryobrien80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terryobrien80)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-catholic/570897/56 "2011-02-10T18:14:02Z")
> [@terryobrien80](#): > > _ **editing…** _ > [@terryobrien80](#): > > Neither. Its the stats. I’ll dig them up if you want. > [@shiftless](#): > > I doubt you will be able to show statistics that prove some of the things you claim but it might be interesting. For example “Because the media PROMOTES the homosexual lifestyle” sounds like an opinion to me. An opinion you are welcome to hold if you like. My question is whether you have formulated this for yourself or is it the actual stated position of the church. Unfortunately, the study conducted by the USCCB is downloadable only in multiple PDF’s. I snap-shotted some of them and posted it in another form (to which I no longer belong). I can’t post images here, otherwise I would. If you want to see it, look at Post #2 here: [http://www.true2ourselves.com/forum/sexual-morality/4383-homosexuality-apparently-problem.html#post78316](http://www.true2ourselves.com/forum/sexual-morality/4383-homosexuality-apparently-problem.html#post78316) ---
**Author:** ![terryobrien80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@terryobrien80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terryobrien80)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-catholic/570897/57 "2011-02-10T18:16:59Z")
> [@spazattak](#): > > Originally Posted by **terryobrien80** [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/images/buttons/viewpost.gif](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13451883#post13451883) > That’s an easy one, from a Catholic perspective that is. > > Governments were created by men and are flawed. > The Church was founded by Jesus and is guided by the Holy Spirit. God guides those he chooses to teach: He guided the prophets, he guided the men who wrote the Bible, and I believe he guides the Pope and Bishops, who we consider to be the “successors” of the Apostles. > > I question man’s inventions, but not that which was established by Christ. > You just opened several cans of worms. > > You consider the catholic church - a human organization created by human (Jesus was human even by Catholic standards), and staffed by humans and has undergone human changes for 2000 years, to be God’s invention? > > Was selling indulgences God’s invention? How about the crusades? The people responsible for them were being guided by God after all. > > I’ll let the biblical experts deal with the writing of the bible part… > > An actual analysis of the historical behavior of the Catholic Church would seem to demonstrate just how human it is… The Catholic Church is a Divine Instution with human members. Huimans sin: I never denied that. But the “teachings” are what are not in error, and that is duw to the Holy Spirit. I have given you my perspective. I never said I was going to convince you that I am right BTW: Indulgences are not an error. “Selling” them was a sin, not condoned by Rome ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-catholic/570897/58 "2011-02-10T18:18:27Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > The pope can remove a bishop. The pope appoints bishops. The pope directs and admonishes and supports bishops. When bishops do things the Vatican actually wants to take action on, the Vatican takes action. Let a bishop, for example, start marrying gays and see how long it takes for the Vatican to step in. > > It’s absolute bullshit to in any way compare this to state governors and the president. A much closer analogy is ambassadors and the president. > > And yeah, I know that the Vatican tries to argue, now, that they just had no idea and no ability to control those wascally bishops now that it’s a matter of record what the bishops were doing (sometimes at the behest of the Vatican) and now that the Vatican is in danger of lawsuit for their craven and despicable efforts to guarantee that RCC priests had a constant supply of ignorant victims. We’re in MPSIMS, not the Pit or GD – pls. dial back the invective a tad. Thanks, **twickster** , MPSIMS moderator ---
**Author:** ![terryobrien80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@terryobrien80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terryobrien80)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-catholic/570897/59 "2011-02-10T18:19:16Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by **terryobrien80** [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/images/buttons/viewpost.gif](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13451944#post13451944) > > I am sorry, but you are incorrect. As I said, a bishop and his diocese can be likened to the governors of states: Governors are all Americans under the same American flag and US Constitution, but no governor has any say at all in what another governor of another state does, and neither does the president. > > > > Under Canon Law the Pope cannot just come into the Arch-Diocese of Los Angeles, for example, and start calling the shots. Its just not done. In keeping with my analogy, the president can’t come to Sacramento and start ordering around the governor’s staff either. > > > > You are simply mistaken in this regard. > > The pope can remove a bishop. The pope appoints bishops. The pope directs and admonishes and supports bishops. When bishops do things the Vatican actually wants to take action on, the Vatican takes action. Let a bishop, for example, start marrying gays and see how long it takes for the Vatican to step in. > > It’s absolute bullshit to in any way compare this to state governors and the president. A much closer analogy is ambassadors and the president. > > And yeah, I know that the Vatican tries to argue, now, that they just had no idea and no ability to control those wascally bishops now that it’s a matter of record what the bishops were doing (sometimes at the behest of the Vatican) and now that the Vatican is in danger of lawsuit for their craven and despicable efforts to guarantee that RCC priests had a constant supply of ignorant victims. I always love to see a non-Catholic tell an orthodox Catholic what his church does and does not do. ---
**Author:** ![terryobrien80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@terryobrien80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terryobrien80)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-catholic/570897/60 "2011-02-10T18:21:02Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > You are all kindly invited to take the child abuse debate to [Great Debates](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=596641) to avoid derailing the genuinely MPSIMS content of this thread. > > Prob’ly too late though. Thank you. I would like to answer questions about true “Catholicism”, not about the sins of individual people… …an area in which NONE of us are “saints” I think its fair to say. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-catholic/570897.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-catholic/570897.md?page=4)