# Ask a dumb question. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 23, 2003, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-dumb-question/163451 "2003-03-23T00:02:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-dumb-question/163451/1 "2003-03-23T00:02:02Z")
Have a dumb question that probably has a simple answer, but it’s not worth a thread of it’s own? Here’s your chance to ask. I propose _one_ rule: No ridicule of any question or questioner allowed. 😉 Here’s mine; What’s the oldest _printed_ fictional story, written purely for entertainment? I know they went for bibles in a BIG way, but what about just for fun. Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![moc.liamtoh\_rorrim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f17d59/32.png) [@moc.liamtoh\_rorrim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moc.liamtoh_rorrim)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-dumb-question/163451/2 "2003-03-23T00:14:37Z")
How long will it be before a mod closes this thread and bans everyone involved? ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-dumb-question/163451/3 "2003-03-23T00:17:52Z")
Oh oh, what did I do now? ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-dumb-question/163451/4 "2003-03-23T00:18:03Z")
A long time. I doubt any bannings will occur. And he _did_ ask a question. If you mean _printed_ as in on a press, I’m sure it wouldn’t have been long after the Bible was off that they’d make a fun-read story. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-dumb-question/163451/5 "2003-03-23T00:21:29Z")
I mean like a novel, printed on the Gutenberg. All a search got me was the bible. ---
**Author:** ![radar\_ralf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b2d939/32.png) [@radar\_ralf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/radar_ralf)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-dumb-question/163451/6 "2003-03-23T00:22:49Z")
Here’s my dumb question: When the hell did the legal system in this country change? Was I asleep or what? Here’s my situation - Last night, some young people vandalized my truck. They punctured one of the tire, broke off the radion antenna, and scratched the crap out of the paint (the responding police officer said it looked like more than $3000.00 worth of damage to him). Now, then, a person actually talked to the culprits! The witness identified the youngsters by looking at photos in a high school yearbook. The police took photos and other evidence at the scene, and then went to the home of one of the alleged perpetrators and the person confessed and implicated the others involved - the police found the broken antenna in this person’s bedroom. Here’s the part I don’t get: the police officer said he would be a witness if the case went to court, and he could present all the evidence that was accumulated, but I would have to start the ball rolling by contacting the D.A.s office and talking with a prosecuting attorney! WTF? Where I grew up (okay, a long time ago) the process was automatic after the police showed up. I was very surprised to hear that I, as the victim, would be responsible for pushing this crime through the justice system. Am I just naive or what? ---
**Author:** ![Davebear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@Davebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Davebear)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-dumb-question/163451/7 "2003-03-23T00:28:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Speaker for the Dead \* > \*\*If you mean _printed_ as in on a press, I’m sure it wouldn’t have been long after the Bible was off that they’d make a fun-read story. \*\* Actually, I believe it _was_ quite a while before fiction was printed as entertainment (as opposed to myths that were taken to be facts). At the time the printing press was invented, hardly anyone knew how to read; only the ranking clergy, nobles, and scribes. There wouldn’t have been a market for “just stories”. And, books were still heinously expensive, for a long time after the invention of movable type. But, what the first novel would have been, I have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![Ice\_Wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dfb087/32.png) [@Ice\_Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ice_Wolf)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-dumb-question/163451/8 "2003-03-23T00:30:35Z")
Back to the OP: [From this site:](http://www.virtualclassics.com/FICTION.htm) > [@](#): > > Before the 15th century most works of fiction were written in verse. Outstanding examples of such early verse include Homer’s _Iliad and Odyssey_, the Greek tragedies, the medieval romances of chivalry, and Chaucer’s _Canterbury Tales_. Boccaccio’s _Decameron_, made up of short prose narratives, called novelle, was forerunner of the modern novel and short story. IOW, take your pick. ---
**Author:** ![gypsymoth3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85e7bf/32.png) [@gypsymoth3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gypsymoth3)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-dumb-question/163451/9 "2003-03-23T00:30:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mangeorge \* > \*\*Here’s mine; What’s the oldest _printed_ fictional story, written purely for entertainment? I know they went for bibles in a BIG way, but what about just for fun. > Peace, > mangeorge \*\* all i know is that the Epic of Gilgamesh is like the oldest book outside the Bible (according to my history book). ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-dumb-question/163451/10 "2003-03-23T00:31:28Z")
I think it’s called “press charges”, **radar ralf** , and it’s been the law for a long time. I had to do it (at the kid’s dad’s request) many years ago. ---
**Author:** ![radar\_ralf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b2d939/32.png) [@radar\_ralf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/radar_ralf)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-dumb-question/163451/11 "2003-03-23T00:37:34Z")
mangeorge: I’ve already done that! Admittedly, to the police officer, but dang - don’t that count? Isn’t he an “officer of the court”? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-dumb-question/163451/12 "2003-03-23T00:38:53Z")
Yes. It’s the victim’s option whether or not to actually pursue the case in a court of law. You could, in theory, let it drop and relinquish your right to seek remedy. This is a nontrivial problem in rape and abuse cases, where the victim is psychologically unwilling to press charges against the tormentor. Some states have instituted systems whereby the state presses charges in the victim’s place, allowing the victim to seek treatment while the case progresses. Ya know, MPSIMS was once just a single thread, too. ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-dumb-question/163451/13 "2003-03-23T01:05:08Z")
Hmm. Earliest printed fiction for fun… . early ones would have been the block-books, before moveable type (the text was carved into the wood block with the illustrations) but these were mostly (all?) religious. So this rules out all Bibles, biblical commentary, lives of the saints, and 'how to die correctly" and ‘you’ve all been very bad’ themed-works. This goes too for the chiro-xylographs, which had printed illustrations but manuscript text. So lets narrow this down to moveable type (which comes along maybe 50 years after they started printing on paper, 20 years or so after book are ‘printed’ at all (the above types) on paper. In Europe. Ok. . I see a reference for a book called “Der Ackermann aus Böhmen” (The ploughman from Bohemia. I think?) published in Bamberg “around” 1460 by Johannes von Saaz. That sounds secular. In 1461 there is a dated book also in Bamberg, earliest (dated) book printed in German, called Der Edelstein (the gemstone/ jewel) which is a book of fables. Pub. Ulrich Boner. In the 1470s there’s a lot more stuff put out–Bocaccio, Aesop, etc, but the above just might be our winners. In the first decade of movable type they didn’t put out a whole lot. How’s that? My question-- does a bicycle ‘hang from’ its spokes or ‘stand’ on them, or both? How could we do the math for such a thing? ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-dumb-question/163451/14 "2003-03-23T01:11:35Z")
Oh, and in response to Davebear’s note about literacy, actually in northern Europe/ Italy of the 15th century literacy levels had increased substantially go a good chunk of the middle class, especially urban, could read to some degree-- this was a result of the beginnings of a public education system here and there and mass movements of lay piety like the devotio moderna, where people were copying out their own bibles and books of hours. Even wimmen! Not great, but miles better than, say, the 11th century. Enough to bring in questions of whether printing _caused_ literacy rates to skyrocket or whether literacy was already so well increased that there was a demand for a more efficient technology like printing (given time-lines the latter seems to be the case, in a sort of coincidental ‘right thing at the right time’ sort of way). In the 11th century there may have just not been enough of a demand to support it (acknowledged ‘what if’ logic excused). Can you tell I took minor exams in all of this? ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-dumb-question/163451/15 "2003-03-23T01:13:13Z")
**capybara** , hang. Take a single spoke and to crush it until it bends, take another and pull it apart and see which is harder to do. And these are all GQ’s, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Kentzel-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-dumb-question/163451/16 "2003-03-23T02:22:45Z")
Why don’t I just merge all of General Questions into this thread? We like having one stupid question per thread. It makes it easier for us to keep up. This is closed. **DrMatrix** - General Questions Moderator