# Ask a Farmer/doper **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 3, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-farmer-doper/573424 "2011-03-03T23:50:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-farmer-doper/573424/21 "2011-03-04T19:42:41Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > Is your job anything like Farmville? What about Harvest Moon? Learning to farm by playing Farmville is like learning to fly a plane by playing a desktop flight sim. It might give you the basics of flying, but I wouldn’t care to get into an actual airplane with you:dubious: > [@](#): > > **Johnny L.A.** Would a Doper Farmer just smile and wave… sitting there on that sack of seeds? Yeah…if he’s Jim Stafford he would. > [@](#): > > **BMalion** Do you have a daughter? Yep…if you’re rich she’s single:p ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-farmer-doper/573424/22 "2011-03-04T19:55:53Z")
Do you ever get to take a vacation? If so, how do you arrange it? mmm ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-farmer-doper/573424/23 "2011-03-04T20:04:21Z")
> [@SeldomSeen](#): > > Yep…if you’re rich she’s single:p Middle class, dang. ---
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-farmer-doper/573424/24 "2011-03-04T20:43:42Z")
> [@Digital\_is\_the\_new\_Analog](#): > > Do you have any experience/opinion on hydroponics? I volunteer at a small community organic garden, and there is discussion about doing hydroponics. Its touted as a way to increase yield over a small area, but is criticized for chemical use. > > -D/a I haven’t had much experience with hydroponics, but what I have seen really hasn’t impressed me too much. Generally the grower spends more time tinkering with the physical plant than actually growing crops. While it does have the potential for large yields in a small area, the technical layout of pumps, pipes, tanks, lights, etc always seemed like more trouble than it was worth. Possibly my resistance to hydroponics is more instinctive than intellectual…I just prefer growing things in a more natural environment. That said, hydroponic growing works well in some situations. In the case of your community garden, it might be worthwhile to experiment with it on a small scale to see how it works for you. > [@](#): > > **ImNotPaulAvery** What would you estimate your profit margin to be in a good year? Bad year? Bad year? it reaches into the negatives. That’s a hard question to answer as there are so many variables. I suppose looking at a strictly cash-in, cash-out basis the annual return on investment would run around 10-15%. But that doesn’t tell the whole story. Even in a year of cash losses, a farmer may still be building equity in his/her land and physical plant. I have known a number of farmers that were millionaires on paper, but lived like paupers and had constant cash-flow troubles. Conversely, I know of one farmer that netted in excess of $1,000,000 one year on twenty acres of red onions. He risked his out-of-pocket expenses (about $5000/acre), grew the crop without a contract then hit the spot market at a peak. but it came after several years of losses, and he was never able to repeat the performance. For awhile I grew a crop (flower seeds) that had potential for a great return…the stickler was that I didn’t get paid until the broker that held the contract sold the crop. It was more than three years before I got paid, and in the mean time I was out all expenses as well as interest on money I’d borrowed to raise it. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-farmer-doper/573424/25 "2011-03-04T20:54:44Z")
Everyone should keep in mind that the cultivation and use of cannabis for any reason whatsoever is illegal under U.S. Federal law, regardless of state or local laws that permit its use and cultivation for medical purposes. Therefore, please refrain from discussing the use or cultivation of cannabis without the appropriate disclaimers. To the OP: Thanks all the same for starting this thread; it was an excellent idea to do so. ---
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-farmer-doper/573424/26 "2011-03-04T21:26:56Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Thanks for starting this thread. > > - on a practical, day-to-day basis, what do you like about the farming you do? What don’t you like? > > - is it possible these days to have the “connection to the land” that farming has represented for centuries, or is it simply different now? Yes, I think it’s possible. In fact I think it’s essential for a farmer to have. One researcher I worked with had a saying that “Anything that separates you from the land is a negative”. He even went so far as to avoid wearing gloves - he thought he needed to get his hands directly into the dirt. And he hated the climate-controlled cabs on tractors that insulated the operator from the outside world. Personally, I think he went a little too far…I’ve blistered my hands often enough that I appreciate a good pair of gloves, and I’ve spent far more time than I wanted to in the noise and dust and heat and cold of open-platform equipment. But I knew where he was coming from. I think that connection is what I like most about the business. That connection breeds a desire to practice good stewerdship. I have known a few farmers that declared it meant nothing to them. To them farming was just a business like any other, there was no emotional attachement. But most of them were not very successful. > [@](#): > > what is your perspective on the general quality of food production that you see? There have been a lot of scares lately - are those the exceptions that get hyped into fear, or do you see systemic issues? > > - how do you feel about the whole “Eat Food. Not too Much. Mostly Plants”/Locavore movement Some of the scares are over-hyped…the Alar fiasco was one. Turned out to be nothing to it, but it bankrupted quite a few farmers before it was over. On the other hand, these things can serve to alert the public to potential problems and keep the industry honest, so they do have some value. There have been and are some systemic issues - most of them stem from the mass-production of crops. Large scfale production can be quite efficient but when there’s a screw-up it affects a lot of people. Smaller, decentralized production is less vulnerable. If a small-time apple grower sprays the wrong thing on his trees it only affects a few people. If a big-time grower does it it affects a few hundred, but the situation will get proportionately more attention and get fixed quicker. I’m basically in favor of the locovore movement. It gives farmers a direct connection to their community, and gives the community a stake in the land. That’s got to be a good thing. SS ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-farmer-doper/573424/27 "2011-03-04T21:54:52Z")
I am not a farmer (just a gardener who grows vegetables for a significant portion of my yearly use of such) but I do have some experience with hydroponics so I’ll take a stab at this: > [@Digital\_is\_the\_new\_Analog](#): > > Do you have any experience/opinion on hydroponics? I volunteer at a small community organic garden, and there is discussion about doing hydroponics. Its touted as a way to increase yield over a small area, but is criticized for chemical use. The chemicals used are basically those that are in soil, fertilizer, plants, etc. and therefore comprise the food we eat. In heavy enough concentrations yes, the nutrient fluid can be irritating. If it’s concentrated enough it can burn your plants, too, so as in so many things moderation is the key here. In the correct concentration it’s actually a heck of a lot safer than, say, common household cleaners. There is the issue of _how_ those nutrient chemicals are made and/or managed. Like many things, there is more than one way to make them, and I’m sure different processes have differeing levels of eco-friendliness. There are chemicals used to adjust the nutrient fluid, but they aren’t necessarily toxic - I use the same baking soda and vinegar to balanace pH as I do to cook food with. The H202 I use for fungus control is in concentrations that wouldn’t hurt you if you drank it, much less got it on you (of course, if you purchase a _concentrate_ and then dilute it you have to be careful about the concentrate). So, _potentially_ hydroponics can be quite green - how much it actually is, is up to the grower. On top of the issues around nutrients, much of my rig is actually built of recycled materials - old doors and sawhorses for table supports, food-grade tubing from a friend’s old and unwanted beer brewing kit, refurbished pumps, etc. I utilize free, natural light as well as grow lights. As it happens, my well water is naturally high in some minerals, so I take that into account when mixing nutrients and make use of what is already in there. > [@SeldomSeen](#): > > I haven’t had much experience with hydroponics, but what I have seen really hasn’t impressed me too much. Generally the grower spends more time tinkering with the physical plant than actually growing crops. While it does have the potential for large yields in a small area, the technical layout of pumps, pipes, tanks, lights, etc always seemed like more trouble than it was worth. Possibly my resistance to hydroponics is more instinctive than intellectual…I just prefer growing things in a more natural environment. That said, hydroponic growing works well in some situations. In the case of your community garden, it might be worthwhile to experiment with it on a small scale to see how it works for you. I have to second much of the above. While _in theory_ hydroponics has higher yields for a given space _in practice_ it is frequently lower, as you are essentially setting up an entirely artificial life support system for the plants. Ignorance on your part will easily result in failure to thrive on their part. For optimum results you require a highly detailed knowledge of each plant species you are growing, optimizing of nutrients not only for species but also stage of growth, lighting requirements, anything requiring pollination must be done _by you_ unless you find a way to enlist a hive of bees to assist you, the tubing, pumps, and other stuff all requires maintenance, one outbreak of fungus like root rot can destroy months of work… Having done both, growing outside in dirt is MUCH easier. So why do I use hydroponics? It provides garden fresh greens and radishes to my household all winter when I _can’t_ grow anything outside. Also, this summer we’ll be experimenting with crops that require a growing season slightly longer and warmer than what we get around here, to see how feasible it is. In short, my hydroponics _supplements_ what I grow outside, it doesn’t replace it. And I’m _not_ shooting for optimum or maximum results, I’m shooting for “good enough to get something edible”. I have had some interesting upsets, from red radishes that never turned red to surprisingly tasteless greens to plants displaying highly abnormal growth patterns due to malnutrition. If some folks in your group want to experiment with it by all means go ahead! It can be enjoyable and fun, like any other gardening. It can also be a lot of work, like any other gardening. You will _definitely_ learn some new things about growing plants. ---
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-farmer-doper/573424/28 "2011-03-04T23:10:05Z")
> [@Shirley\_Ujest](#): > > Do you buy Genetically Modified seed? I don’t use genetically modified seed, simply because I don’t grow the crops that it’s usually associated with. GM seeds are mostly for the major large-acerage crops…Corn, Soybeans, cotton, small grains etc. I’ve always been geared toward minor crops; vegetables, seed crops, herbs, some forage. GM seeds are not widely used for these things, although some have been developed. On the other hand, I do plant hybrid seeds, and strictly speaking hybridization is a form of genitic manipulation although to a lesser degree. > [@](#): > > What kind of tractor do you have? ( It’s all about the tractor.) Ah…the old “brand loyalty” test eh? I own a couple of different makes, but I’ve always been partial to the [Massey-Ferguson](http://www.masseyferguson.com/agco/mf/na/) brand. They are strong in the utility/mid-size department, which is the most useful for the type of farming I do. They also have very dependable dealer network in my area, with good customer service. SS ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-farmer-doper/573424/29 "2011-03-04T23:10:24Z")
In your time as a farmer, have you been noticing changes in the climate, and if yes, can you elaborate on them? ---
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-farmer-doper/573424/30 "2011-03-04T23:56:53Z")
> [@StGermain](#): > > Is your user name after the great dressage horse ridden by Lendon Gray? No, I swiped the name from Seldom Seen Smith, the polygamous whiskey-drinking jack-mormon cowboy, river runner and eco-raider in Edward Abbey’s fine novel _The Monkey Wrench Gang._ I’ve always loved that story, and SS Smith was the character I could most relate to. FTR, I am not a mormon, I have only one wife, and have never engaged in eco-facism. But I’ve run a few rivers, have a strong environmental ethic, and I do like whiskey 😉 SS ---
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-farmer-doper/573424/31 "2011-03-05T00:53:36Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > Do you have concerns regarding large-scale monoculture agriculture? If so, any thoughts on how to address it? Large -scale agriculture is a concern, especially when coupled with monocropping. It should be pointed out though, that a lot of large farms have moved away from monoculture and diversified their operation somewhat, mostly for economic reasons. It is also true that the largest farms are also often among the first to undertake such things as conservation reserve land, habitat improvement, water-saving technology. Often times they have the resources to do these things whereas a struggling small operator may not be able to. So big isn’t necessarily bad. Ideally I think there should be a good diverse mix of farm types, sizes, operating models etc. It is significant that in the American west and south, in earlier times there were large plantations and vast ranches, often owned by absentee landlords. In time, these proved uneconomic and were split up among smaller operators. When times and markets and technology changed we began to see a consolidation of these small holdings into larger operations. I expect that in time the pendulum will swing the other way and it may prove to be more effective to return to smaller individual operations. > [@](#): > > How much of a niche is there for small (5-10 acre) farms? There is and probably always will be a niche for small operators, although it is very difficult to make a full-time living from such. Not impossible, but difficult. The challange is to find a niche product, a specialty item. Some kind of special livestock; capons maybe, or muscovy ducks. Or a crop like sunchokes or herbs…I know of one lady that was said to be making $50,000/year - a decent living - on 3 acres. Her only crop was some kind of heirloom beans that were marketed to a certain restaurant that used them in one of their house specialties. But niches like this are hard to find and establish. > [@](#): > > Are you familiar with Joe Salatin of Polyface Farms and his writings? What are your opinions of his stuff I wasn’t until you mentioned it 🙂 His web site looks interesting…I’ll make a point of spending some time there. SS ---
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-farmer-doper/573424/32 "2011-03-05T21:27:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*@kushiel \*\*Could you survive only on the income from your farm? A lot of the additional jobs you’ve spoken of are the sort of thing the farmers I know would get into because they need additional income. No, more’s the pity. Either the wife or I or both have always held outside jobs. If I were not carrying a fairly heavy mortgage it might be feasible. > [@](#): > > How’s the distribution of farms in your area? A lot of corporate farms, or large family run farms, or many small farms? Very mixed. Still quite a few small operators like me around, although nearly all of them have some off-farm income. The dairy industry has all gone big-time…my parents made a very good living from 80 acres and a 40-cow dairy herd, now even a mid-sized dairy has 1000 head or more. Among crop farmers there are still a fair number of one-person spreads, mostly around 300-500 acres. The dominant model though seems to be larger farms owned & operated by an extended family - as in your area. A few big corporate crop growers as well. Among the public-lands cattle ranchers it’s a mix of mid-to-large sized family operations and big corporations. > [@](#): > > \*\*@Mean Mr. Mustard \*\*Do you ever get to take a vacation? If so, how do you arrange it? Mostly in the winter. Other times of the year, I have some informal work-sharing arrangements with neighbors; wes sometimes cover for each other. > [@](#): > > **@L. G. Butts, Ph.D.** In your time as a farmer, have you been noticing changes in the climate, and if yes, can you elaborate on them? It seems to me - and this is strictly anecdotal - that winters have become colder, drier and of shorter duration. The region where I live is borderline desert averaging around 12 inches of precip annually. An annual “seasonal drought” is typical - June-October see little or no precipitation and the region is highly dependent on snowpack in the surrounding mountains for water supply. In recent years there has been a pattern of very cold, dry high pressure ridges forming over the area which repulses many of the winter storms that drop the winter moisture. On the other hand the winters seem to be of shorter duration. In the last 30 years wine grapes have been widely planted here, where previously the growing season was thought to be too short. Shortages of irrigation water seem to be more common than they used to, although some of this is due to increased demand. Agriculture used to take top priority in water supply, now increasing urbanization, industrialization and riparian maintenance are competing for water. This is a common situation all over the American west, and it is hard to say how much of it is caused by climate change…and whether the change is cyclical or permanent. SS ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_is\_the\_new\_Analog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e4f/32.png) [@Digital\_is\_the\_new\_Analog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_is_the_new_Analog)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-farmer-doper/573424/33 "2011-03-06T00:50:02Z")
Thanks, **SeldomSeen** and **Broomstick**. Growing season certainly isn’t the issue here in South Florida. Our soil is crap, but we help that out with…crap. And compost. “Natural” nutrients. There is only one volunteer who is pushing for hydroponics - I guess we’ll let him give it a shot and prove its worth. But we’ll continue to focus on the traditional stuff. We have 6 acres of land, and plenty to do without having to constantly maintain another system. I’d rather work on the rain barrels. 🙂 -D/a ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-farmer-doper/573424/34 "2011-03-06T02:34:48Z")
If Mr. Hydroponics really wants to try it and he has some bucks to spare I’d recommend he start with one of the kits that provide the various needed elements (bucket, growth medium, tubing, pumps, etc.) for maximum chance of enjoying some success. It is possible to start quite small and I also recommend that. Going from no experience to constructing the entire operation and mixing your own nutrients is quite the learning curve and will involve frustration and failure. If he starts with a kit he can enjoy getting something and get some experience under his belt prior to any motion to expand his hydroponics. Some of the kits can get ridiculously expensive, but if he shops around a bit he should find something suitable in a mid-price range. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-farmer-doper/573424.md?page=1)