# Ask a "high-functioning" borderline your questions! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 19, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-high-functioning-borderline-your-questions/691169 "2014-06-19T21:14:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-high-functioning-borderline-your-questions/691169/41 "2014-06-22T02:01:38Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > I’m on my phone and dont know how to post links but not according to **Psychology Today** , September 27, 2013: "Do people with BPD have empathy? > > ``` > For a number of reasons, showing empathy is problematic for people with borderline personality disorder. Those with BPD are so caught up in their own emotional tornadoes that your concerns get lost in the chaos." > > ``` _Showing_ empathy is not the same thing as having empathy. Lots of people dealing with illness of any type have difficulty showing empathy. This is awfully hard to do when you’re overwhelmed by pain. Hence, why hospitals are full of mean, grouchy people. I think people (not necessarily you, **Ambi** ) mistakenly believe that being empathic is the same thing as being a nice person. Or that isn’t possible to be a nice “normal-acting” person unless one is empathic. All empathy is is being able to feel and relate to other people’s emotional states. You can be both empathic and jerkish as long as you think your feelings matter more than other people’s (which I think everyone with a health self-esteem believes, to some degree) Research is showing that [psychopaths](http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-23431793) possess empathy just like everyone else. But normal people don’t have to be prompted or instructed to feel empathy, whereas psychopaths do. I find that really interesting. People with autism spectrum disorders are also misunderstood in a similar fashion. And it is true that they often have problems discussing their emotional state (alexithymia). But just like people with BPD, autistics are frequently extremely sensitive to other people’s emotions. I’m guessing this is one of the main reasons why women with ASD’s are often misdiagnosed with BPD. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-high-functioning-borderline-your-questions/691169/42 "2014-06-22T02:25:17Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > _Showing_ empathy is not the same thing as having empathy. Lots of people dealing with illness of any type have difficulty showing empathy. This is awfully hard to do when you’re overwhelmed by pain. Hence, why hospitals are full of mean, grouchy people. > > I think people (not necessarily you, **Ambi** ) mistakenly believe that being empathic is the same thing as being a nice person. Or that isn’t possible to be a nice “normal-acting” person unless one is empathic. All empathy is is being able to feel and relate to other people’s emotional states. You can be both empathic and jerkish as long as you think your feelings matter more than other people’s (which I think everyone with a health self-esteem believes, to some degree) > > Research is showing that [psychopaths](http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-23431793) possess empathy just like everyone else. But normal people don’t have to be prompted or instructed to feel empathy, whereas psychopaths do. I find that really interesting. People with autism spectrum disorders are also misunderstood in a similar fashion. And it is true that they often have problems discussing their emotional state (alexithymia). But just like people with BPD, autistics are frequently extremely sensitive to other people’s emotions. I’m guessing this is one of the main reasons why women with ASD’s are often misdiagnosed with BPD. I’m sorry but everything i read says those with BPD actually have less capacity for empathy than the general population. _Markedly_ less. For the life of me, I can’t figure out how to post links with my phone but just google “empathy, borderline personality disorder” and you will find plenty of scholarly articles that feature studies that show this. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-high-functioning-borderline-your-questions/691169/43 "2014-06-22T02:59:35Z")
[Borderline Empathy Revisited](http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/science-the-border/200907/borderline-empathy-revisited) > [@](#): > > This study suggests that, when not under elevated emotion stress, individuals with BPD have an enhanced ability discriminate mental states based on only the eye region of the face, particularly for “neutral” states. This experimental evidence is consistent with the “paradoxical” theory of the appraisal of social communication in BPD. **That is, it seems that BPD is characterized by both unstable interpersonal relationships and enhanced sensitivity to the mental states of others.** Also remember that the science of personality disorders in general, and borderline PD specifically, is still emerging and almost every day there are new discoveries. Researchers are now finding that BPD can develop in individuals who do not have a history of abuse, that in some individuals it is virtually indistinguishable from rapid cycling bipolar disorder, and that it can be treated pharmacologically–which can only be said for a small number of PD’s. Conventional wisdom also has it that BPD is intractable and that people with it can’t change because of their inability to acknowledge their problems. But the success of [dialectical behavior therapy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_behavior_therapy) is disproving both of these ideas. A lot of people think they understand what BPD is because they had a crazy girlfriend with it, or because they’ve watched “Fatal Attraction” one too many times. But it is really a very complex disorder. Are there people with it who have a reduced empathy? Sure. But reduced empathy is not at the root of the dysfunction behind borderline PD. Dysregulated emotions are. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-high-functioning-borderline-your-questions/691169/44 "2014-06-22T03:09:00Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > I’m sorry but everything i read says those with BPD actually have less capacity for empathy than the general population. _Markedly_ less. For the life of me, I can’t figure out how to post links with my phone but just google “empathy, borderline personality disorder” and you will find plenty of scholarly articles that feature studies that show this. I think that those with BPD can often “read” people incredibly well and “write” their own behaviour accordingly: that doesn’t necessarily mean that they _have_ empathy, just that they are very good at being manipulative, at least in the short term. Where they typically fall short is that being genuinely empathetic doesn’t mean simply tailoring yourself to make people like you. They tend to operate on a level which is sophisticated on the surface but ultimately rooted shallowly, and then react badly when people fail to respond. There are no shades of grey; you’re typically either their best friend or discarded quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-high-functioning-borderline-your-questions/691169/45 "2014-06-22T03:23:00Z")
I’m almost terrified to reply to this thread, because the OP is the same age that the BPD girl I dated 12 years ago would be now, and her location isn’t all that far from me, and oh my god, she’s found me … > [@monstro](#): > > I hope the early jokes didn’t scare off the OP. Usually we hear about BPD from the exhausted, fed-up lover or family member side. Not the person with BPD. Yeah, the jokes aren’t funny. > [@Broomstick](#): > > I think one of the misconceptions with the disorder is that they’re all hopeless or all intolerable people. Yes, they can be, but if they become self-aware enough to realize that a lot of their problems are coming _from_ them rather than being done _to_ them they hold down a job, have friends, a build a pretty normal life in most respects. I have heard that BPD is a disorder that can be somewhat “grown out of”. And that makes some sense, with what you said there about becoming “self-aware enough to realize that a lot of their problems are coming _from_ them rather than being done _to_ them”. > [@Jragon](#): > > No, Borderline people are known for being extremely empathic, but when you mix it with black/white thinking, fear of abandonment, and, y’know, an inability to actually read minds it goes off the rails. So they’re extremely likely to notice subtle hints that you’re unhappy, but oh… you’re unhappy, this must be the WORST THING EVER and OH NO YOU’RE PROBABLY GOING TO LEAVE ME BECAUSE OF YOUR EXTREME UNHAPPINESS HOW CAN I MAKE IT BETTER!? It’s part of why Borderline people tend to be very good at playing people like fiddles. (Self-aware borderline people also have an extra layer of problems in that they recognize that they’re hurting people so it can cause a self-feeding infinite loop of empathic outbursts). One of the problems I had when I was dating a BPD girl was that she had an uncanny ability to hear absolutely anything I said, and _instantly_ come up with the worst possible interpretation. It could be some completely innocent comment, and it was _instantly_ a slam against her. When I was with her, I was living in the local men’s homeless shelter, and she was living in our “sister” women’s shelter. One afternoon, the two of us were down at the park, and I noticed it was getting close to 6:00PM. So I mentioned to her that I should be getting “home” for dinner (and frankly, so should she - these places run on a schedule, and if you’re not there at meal time, you don’t eat). Her response: “Oh, so you don’t want to be seen with me in front of your friends?” What? No! Wait … it’s dinner time and I want to eat today … what? > [@monstro](#): > > Since I have the opposite problem, I can’t relate to this at all. I would always want to yell at them that they were delusional when I’d read through those threads. But that’s why they are in therapy–to learn how to not feel and think this way. Me yelling at them wasn’t going to help them get better. That is one of the biggest problems I had when I was dating a BPD girl: my refusal to get angry with her. Once I realized what was going on with her, and recognized that she was going out of her way to deliberately make me angry, I couldn’t muster up any actual anger. So she would go out and have sex with some other guy, and then come crawling to me the next day confessing her “sin”, and I would forgive her … and then she’d fly into a rage and call me a pussy and “passive” because I didn’t get pissed off and beat the shit out of her. Seriously, my relationship with her is a big reason that I’m celibate. > [@Samantha\_Leigh](#): > > I am not trying to hijack this thread, but it seems to me that parental neglect and parental emotional abuse plays a big part in how people with BPD form when they are growing up. I don’t know how I would have turned out had I not had a rough childhood, but I honestly believe I was born with a more sensitive temperament that was especially damaged by my troubles with my parents. My BPD girlfriend was severely physically abused by her mother. As in brutal whippings for “misbehavior”. Her father once tried to intervene, pushing her mother away and trying to protect his daughter. Result? Mom called the police and accused him of beating her. Dad went to jail. Dad decided that the best course of action was to spend as much time as possible at his job, ignoring the problem. Girlfriend’s dad’s name? Same as mine. Girlfriend’s dad’s profession? Same as mine. I met her dad. I was blown away by how much that guy was just like me. Scary. I got to meet her mom once, too. Little bird of a woman. The way my girlfriend’s whole demeanor changed in that woman’s presence was astounding. And her mom was so … nice. And everything about that 30 minutes or so with me and girlfriend and girlfriend’s mom felt so completely fake that it was painful. > [@Penfeather](#): > > If you’ve ever known someone with BPD, they can be incredibly good at moulding themselves into the kind of person you’ll respond well to, at least in the very short term. I had a roommate with PBD once, when everyone met her first their repsonse was always “What a lovely woman!” Truth. When I first met my BPD girlfriend, completely unaware of her issues, she was just totally perfect in every way. I felt so comfortable with her that I ended up sharing with her some rather personal, private information about myself … which all came out, loudly, in front of everybody, when she got mad at me. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-high-functioning-borderline-your-questions/691169/46 "2014-06-22T15:21:21Z")
I think ultimately the “empathy” thing is largely a matter of philosophy. I’m certainly not a behaviorist or anything, but whether a given person is **really** empathetic to the feelings of another person is something I think is just conjecture unless you’re talking about very clear-cut cases. Keep in mind that people with Cluster B disorders can also jump between the quadrants very quickly, and it’s possible they sometimes are empathic and sometimes aren’t. People with BPD can also have “trigger people” – where they really are fairly normal with some people (often acquaintances or coworkers) and with others (often those very close to them) they become the unpredictable monster. Either way, it’s clear that whether they have empathy or not, the empathy is inevitably drowned out by their episodes. I don’t think anybody can really say for sure whether or not BPD sufferers have empathy or not – and whether or not that applies universally or only to certain people. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-high-functioning-borderline-your-questions/691169/47 "2014-06-23T01:56:49Z")
I don’t think the OP is coming back… ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-high-functioning-borderline-your-questions/691169/48 "2014-06-23T02:11:02Z")
Why do people do that? (Write an OP and never return to further discuss it.) ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-high-functioning-borderline-your-questions/691169/49 "2014-06-23T02:23:51Z")
She thought we were talking shit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-a-high-functioning-borderline-your-questions/691169.md?page=2)