# Ask Peter Morris if he is a Liar or a Troll or just tell him. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 29, 2006, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359 "2006-10-29T21:12:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/1 "2006-10-29T21:12:10Z")
> **[Ask the Randi $1M challenge applicant](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=394028)** > > I have decided to apply for the James Randi Million Dollar Challenge. People making claims are challenged by James Randi to prove them. Some of the claims are mental powers, such as telepathy. But note that some of the claims are “pseudoscience”... A Liar or a Troll? For the lying option, check these posts on page 5 on that thread:: [QUOTE=Mr. Miskatonic] [QUOTE=by Peter Morris] Randi never said anything that remotely approaches that. [/QUOTE] You have a funny definition of ‘never’. Randi, from Flim-Flam, (already quoted at least twice in this thread) [QUOTE=Randi] "Dowsers have the strange notion that water travels in underground rivers and will happily trace these torrents for you. But geologists know otherwise. Bob Huguley, a geologist who works for the Planning Board of Monmouth County, New Jersey, doesn’t know if one dowser in the area who has ever been successful. He also estimates that less than 1 percent of the earth’s underground water actually flows beneath the surface. That small fraction is confined to areas rich in limestone (known as “karst” country) and the resulting caves, where real underground streams can occour. Underground flow can also occur in porous material, but that flow amounts to only a few feet or a few miles in a year. Most water that is obtained by measns of wells and so forth is in pools and resevoirs underground. It does not flow. [/QUOTE] What are we to make of this definition you have of ‘never’? [/QUOTE] [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7913966&postcount=226](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7913966&postcount=226) [QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] [QUOTE=Peter Morris] Every time he talks about dowsers he will come out with the same stuff. He always leads his supporters in laughing at them for being stupid and delusional because they believe in underground rivers. One of his central arguments against dowsers goes : - dowsers believe in underground rivers - underground rivers don’t exist [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=James Randi] real underground streams can occur [/QUOTE] I believe I will not be violating great debates rules when I say that, unless there is significant difference between an underground stream and an underground river, you are a liar. Daniel [/QUOTE] For the Trolling evidence: Peter Morris himself!: [QUOTE=Peter Morris] I’ve pointed out numerous examples before. His supporters just spew out abuse, and think that “woowoo” is a logical answer. Now, I’m fed up trying to prove that he’s wrong. I shall no longer try to give an education to fundamentalists who just don’t want to know. Instead of that, I’ll just use Randi’s willful ignorance to my own ends. I’ll just take advantage of the challenge he offered, and make myself some money. Whether or nor you ever understand just how ill-informed he is just doesn’t matter to me anymore. [/QUOTE] So, here I invite the opinions or a roasting from the dopers. But note the following ground rules: 1. Ask or tell if you think he is a Liar or a Troll, and nothing else’s. I’m not going to get into any debates about the kumquat size brain he is showing. 2. I shall respond to belligerence. 🙂 3. Don’t ask questions, state your opinion and try to start a debacle.. 🙂 4. Simple responses only, we need it for simple minds. No long, essay type questions, after all, we need to help Peter here. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/2 "2006-10-29T21:17:10Z")
I just get the feeling Randi ran over his dog or something. He’s really feeling some compunction to punish the guy that’s overriding most rational thought. Oh, and to fulfil the rules, 1) i’d say he’s lying at some points 2) you bastard, 3) and that’s clearly the truth of the matter 4). ---
**Author:** ![brownie55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f14d63/32.png) [@brownie55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brownie55)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/3 "2006-10-29T21:18:08Z")
I was surprised that that trainwreck was not shut down as a mercy killing. That boy is gonna get his ass kicked up around his shoulders. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/4 "2006-10-29T21:18:36Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] 3) Don’t ask questions, state your opinion and try to start a debacle.. 🙂 [/QUOTE] That’s not a question. I’m not going to respond to you. ---
**Author:** ![brownie55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f14d63/32.png) [@brownie55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brownie55)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/5 "2006-10-29T21:22:59Z")
[QUOTE=brownie55] I was surprised that that train wreck was not shut down as a mercy killing. That boy is gonna get his ass kicked up around his shoulders. [/QUOTE] OOPS, I missed the rules: 1. Liar, not smart enough to be a troll 2. Cool, I am belligerance, if not sportsmanship 3. Done 4. I used short words, so covered ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/6 "2006-10-29T21:26:03Z")
Fucking lying troll, motherfucker–how would you like it if Hitler killed **you**? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/7 "2006-10-29T21:26:42Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] A Liar or a Troll? [/quote] Why does he have to be one or the other? Why can’t he hold a sincere, misguided belief? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/8 "2006-10-29T21:27:18Z")
So, I asked this Jewish freind of mine “How come Jews always answer a question with another question?” And he said “So why shouldn’t a Jew answer a question with a question?” Maybe he’s just a victim of Randi’s self-righteous persona, which persons of taste and discernment find obnoxious and pointlessly self-congratulatory. The man makes a BHAD out of proving that things which probably cannot be scientificly examined _at all_ cannot be scientificly proven. Gee, thanks. Don’t know why it is, but professional magicians seem to be frequently marked by a bitter skepticism born of the credulity of thier audiences. Meh, says I, whatsoever shall float yer boat. But I am sure I am not the only one who would derive a _schadenfreudian_ giggle out of seeing him fall flat on his face. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/9 "2006-10-29T21:27:49Z")
He’s obviously not telling the _actual_ truth, but I doubt he’s conscious of it, so I wouldn’t call him a liar. I believe he really believes what he’s saying. I don’t know whence his pathological hatred of Randi flows, but powerful and lasting it is. The saddest part was this: In response to the question “Do you legitimately believe that he will accept your application?”, he answered > [@Peter Morris](#): > > That’s up to him. If he doesn’t, then everyone will know that he issues challenges, thenb backs out when people accept. Bang goes his credfibility. Imagine the kind of person who actually believes this. He actually believes that Randi refusing one application from one random guy who can’t get a single person to agree with his interpretation of a not very important statement will cause Randi’s credibility to go “bang”. Imagine what it’s like inside his head. I’m sorry, I can’t see anything funny in this. Sorry to bring down the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/10 "2006-10-29T21:32:39Z")
[QUOTE=samclem] Why can’t he hold a sincere, misguided belief? [/QUOTE] Holding a single misguided belief would be one thing–but he’s repeatedly made false statements in the thread, including several nasty ones pointed at me as I attempted to clarify his position. I do think he’s probably insane, but he’s also perfectly willing to lie about minor points in order to maintain his central delusion. The fact that he considers these lies unimportant does not make him any less of a liar. As someone else suggested, he may have started the thread in order to increase traffic to his site, and therefore increase ad revenues. If so, he’s contemptible. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/11 "2006-10-29T21:33:14Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] > **[Ask the Randi $1M challenge applicant](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=394028)** > > I have decided to apply for the James Randi Million Dollar Challenge. People making claims are challenged by James Randi to prove them. Some of the claims are mental powers, such as telepathy. But note that some of the claims are “pseudoscience”... 1. Ask or tell if you think he is a Liar or a Troll, and nothing else’s. I’m not going to get into any debates about the kumquat size brain he is showing. [/quote] Is a lie a lie if you actually believe it yourself? Frankly, I think he is delusional. I suppose that would put him closer to a liar than a troll, but given the effort he has gone to to file a challenge he would actually seem to believe the idiocy he’s been spewing. > [@](#): > > 1. I shall respond to belligerence. 🙂 You’re a festering wart for not giving us a wider range of choices in the first question. > [@](#): > > 1. Don’t ask questions, state your opinion and try to start a debacle.. 🙂 That boy is crazier than a shithouse opossum. > [@](#): > > 1. Simple responses only, we need it for simple minds. No long, essay type questions, after all, we need to help Peter here. :dubious: Okey dokey. ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/12 "2006-10-29T21:34:24Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] how would you like it if Hitler killed **you**? Daniel [/QUOTE] I saw that Dilbert cartoon and thought of this message board. Is that bad? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/13 "2006-10-29T21:35:46Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] The saddest part was this: In response to the question “Do you legitimately believe that he will accept your application?”, he answeredImagine the kind of person who actually believes this. He actually believes that Randi refusing one application from one random guy who can’t get a single person to agree with his interpretation of a not very important statement will cause Randi’s credibility to go “bang”. Imagine what it’s like inside his head. [/QUOTE] I’ve been trying to convince him that Randi won’t lose any credibility if they just don’t think **Peter’s** right, but he seems incapable of even understanding this. Peter: Aha! Randi is wrong! (also, he called me “delusional”). People: Meh. We don’t think your method works. Peter: Who gives a fuck what \*you \* think? (did I mention he called me “delusional?”) People: Uhm, you do? You’re trying to spread publicity on him being wrong… kinda doesn’t work if we don’t believe your method. Peter: Your judgement is wrong, and I cannot be bothered to correct it. People: Uhm, ok. We still think you’re a loon. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/14 "2006-10-29T21:36:13Z")
[QUOTE=nameless] I saw that Dilbert cartoon and thought of this message board. Is that bad? [/QUOTE] Not so much “bad” as “inevitable.” I was really tempted to pull that line out in the GD thread, but figured that would be too much. I was sad, though, that nobody commented on the Lewis Carroll poem. I thought it was pretty fucking apt. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/15 "2006-10-29T21:37:32Z")
And yet another reference in the thread to his website, clickthroughs to which will generate money for him. At some point does this cross over into rulesbreaking? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/16 "2006-10-29T21:38:54Z")
Personally I find that Randi can come across as an abrasive jerk, and Kramer was the wrong person to assist with the challenges. I mean you can imagine the sort of people they have to deal with, you’d need the patience of Job, and Kramer strikes me as having no patience at all. That being said **Peter’s** obsession with Randi–25 years running IIRC–is pretty out there. Randi is just not that important in the greater scheme of things. I don’t think Peter’s a liar or a troll or even stupid, I just think he’s got a bizarre obsession which he probably doesn’t understand himself. He probably doesn’t get just how monomaniacal and overblown his outrage is. I have to say it’s pretty fucking weird, but what are you gonna do. No sense engaging it, just let it alone. In other words, what **Priceguy** said. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/17 "2006-10-29T21:40:40Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] Holding a single misguided belief would be one thing–but he’s repeatedly made false statements in the thread, including several nasty ones pointed at me as I attempted to clarify his position. I do think he’s probably insane, but he’s also perfectly willing to lie about minor points in order to maintain his central delusion. The fact that he considers these lies unimportant does not make him any less of a liar. [/QUOTE] A delusional person would not think that his statements were lies. Perhaps you perceived them as such, but he might not. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/18 "2006-10-29T21:40:55Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] Personally I find that Randi can come across as an abrasive jerk. [/QUOTE] No doubt. Being right doesn’t equal being someone I want to share a beer with, and Randi seems like the sort I’d want to sit far, far away from at a social gathering. His emails to Peter almost made me want to side with Peter. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/19 "2006-10-29T21:41:28Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] I’m sorry, I can’t see anything funny in this. Sorry to bring down the thread. [/QUOTE] That is ok, I asked for a debacle too. 🙂 **elucidator** : That was too long for Peter, have a heart will you? [QUOTE=samclem] Why does he have to be one or the other? Why can’t he hold a sincere, misguided belief? [/QUOTE] As I mentioned before on the other thread, I am beginning to agree with DMC: [QUOTE=DMC] 1. Is the purpose of this thread at least partially an attempt to make money from ad revenue generated by people visiting your site? [/QUOTE] I would have my doubts if he was only showing a short intro to his challenge, but he is linking to his website and I do have a beef when we are funding his beef. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/20 "2006-10-29T21:43:37Z")
oooh. A post of mine used for pitting, but I am not the one pitted.! [QUOTE=GIGObuster] [But note the following ground rules: 1. Ask or tell if you think he is a Liar or a Troll, and nothing else’s. I’m not going to get into any debates about the kumquat size brain he is showing. [/QUOTE] Liar, if not outright delusional. I first posted the quote in post #104 of that same thread. Observe how much he edited the quote down to reply in post #120. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=394028&page=3](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=394028&page=3) When I pointed out his slippery quoting (post #132) he went off on some irrelevant tangent about how this misunderstanding of his is somehow Randi’s fault (post #145) This is Cognitive Dissonance. > [@](#): > > 1. I shall respond to belligerence. 🙂 U SUK NOOB! > [@](#): > > 1. Don’t ask questions, state your opinion and try to start a debacle.. 🙂 I think the above comments about Peter show he really is avoiding facing reality > [@](#): > > 1. Simple responses only, we need it for simple minds. No long, essay type questions, after all, we need to help Peter here. :dubious: OG SMASH! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359.md?page=2)