# Ask Peter Morris if he is a Liar or a Troll or just tell him. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 29, 2006, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359 "2006-10-29T21:12:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/61 "2006-10-30T02:25:23Z")
[QUOTE=Princhester] Are you sure that was me? I mean, it might have been. I just don’t remember. Of course, the $50,000 finder’s fee when you win will be nice\* \*I’m joking. You win it, you deserve to keep the lot. Plus I really am far from sure it was me who suggested you apply. Maybe it was. [/QUOTE] since you mention it, you are the person I talked about here : [http://www.proverandiwrong.net/pre%20application.aspx](http://www.proverandiwrong.net/pre%20application.aspx) And since you suggested it, you deserve it. Go buy yourself a nice new boat. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/62 "2006-10-30T02:25:32Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] I was going to post this in the original thread,. but it’s been closed. [/quote] Yes indeed. And do **you** know why? 😕 [QUOTE=Peter Morris] see, it’s like this. Randi isn’t very clever really… [/quote] The evidence is that he is an accomplished magician, lecturer, author, runs a succcessful Foundation and website. You’re obviously obsessively jealous of him. [QUOTE=Peter Morris] Here’s an example of one of his works of fiction: \<\< I challenge all the dowsers in a similar way. Since 94 percent of the Earth’s surface has water within drillable distance my challenge is to find a dry spot! They don’t want to do it. Why? Because they only have a six percent chance of success. \>\> He tells two direct lies in the above piece. First lie: the claim that 94% of the Earth’s surface has water. [/quote] Actually this shows you are really sad. :rolleyes: Randi’s claim is: 94 percent of the Earth’s surface has water **within drillable distance** Your ludicrous ‘evidence’ is that he said: 94% of the Earth’s surface has water. I could tear the rest of your rubbish posting to shreds, but I have better things to do. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/63 "2006-10-30T02:26:03Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] The fact is, water is much harder to find than he makes out. Random drilling is really very likely to hit a dry spot, and Randi knows it. Second lie. He tells the tale of how he dared dowsers to find a dry spot, and they refused. This is sheer fabrication. It never happened. I’ve corresponded with him on this point, and he’s admitted that he made it up, or rather used the weasel words “figure of speech.” [/QUOTE] I’ve no idea on the reality of the 94% number, but the fact that he’s offering a million dollars to dowsers (or anyone to prove something paranormal or within “pseudoscience”) fairly well proves that he is daring dowsers, and that they haven’t won. But whether he is a lying ass or not is rather irrelevant to your goal. And personally I don’t care one way or the other. The problem is, if you’re trying to prove that dowsing works then, simply, that’s already been disproven. And if you’re trying to prove that there’s underwater rivers that aren’t in caves, moving through porous materials, or that 94% isn’t realistic a number, then I doubt that you’re going to come up with a definition of any of these terms that both of you will agree upon. It’s a simple battle of semantics. “If you dig deep enough, there is water under 94% of land” leaves it open to dig to China, even. While as requiring that the well be able to sustain all crops for five miles in either direction, plus keep a zoo fed, or else it’s a “dry spot” is similarly unrealistic. But either way all you will conclude is that it depends on what definition you feel like using–and you’ll never see a jot of money since the challenge isn’t to prove that Randi uses poor, misleading, or wrong examples. It’s to come up with a test for something that he believes is unprovable. Coming up with a very restrictive definition of “wet ground” doesn’t make dry ground provable. Dry ground is proven, the only question being how much of it there is. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/64 "2006-10-30T02:29:30Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] eg, Randi says that there are NO underground rivers. [/QUOTE] **samclem** , he made exactly this claim in the previous thread. I immediately quoted him the passage from Randi in which Randi says that “real underground streams can occour.” Peter continues to claim that Randi says there are no underground rivers. Is this what you mean when you say that he’s sincere? Because the necessary delusion would have to be a grand delusion that prevents him from seeing the words that he quotes. I guess it’s possible, and to be honest, “liar” is not that much more plausible an explanation: it’s such a foolish lie, one that your average five year old would realize would be ineffective. Maybe I just don’t understand delusions well enough to recognize one when I see it. I am interested in the idea that maybe he suffers from a linguistic abnormality; maybe there’s something going on in his language processing centers of his brain that mixes up modifiers. Of course this is pulled-out-of-my-butt speculation, but it could almost be something akin to dyslexia, some sort of specific learning disorder. It would account for a lot of his errors. Daniel Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/65 "2006-10-30T02:30:30Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] I’ve no idea on the reality of the 94% number, but the fact that he’s offering a million dollars to dowsers (or anyone to prove something paranormal or within “pseudoscience”) fairly well proves that he is daring dowsers, and that they haven’t won. . [/QUOTE] no, because many of his stories are sheer fiction, like the one quoted. how do you know they haven’t succeeded? Randi lies about the tests he conducts. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/66 "2006-10-30T02:30:30Z")
This is pointless. Peter Morris reminds me of an old roommate I had who would hang onto the most ridiculous arguments for god knows what reason and fight passionately, tooth and nail to prove he was right. I once casually mentioned to him that chrome on cars has gone in and out of style over the years and he literally turned red in the face and barked for hours that chrome has always and will always be in style on cars. When he fervently argued that chrome on the outside of a car was just as functional as a rear-view mirror I _almost_ punched him. That was 3 years ago this month. I am still friends with that guy but I told him that night that we were getting seperate apartments and I have not argued with him since about anything. It is completely fruitless, just like arguing with Peter Morris. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/67 "2006-10-30T02:32:53Z")
I have a feeling I’m going to regret this, but I give to you [Lost River Caverns](http://www.lostcave.com/cave1.htm), in Hellertown, PA. > [@](#): > > Moving through the cavern is the Lost River, whose clear waters mysteriously originate from an unknown source, then disappear once more beneath the earth’s surface. There’s also (sorry, no site) a river that runs through Lynchburg, TN, which, after it flows under the Jack Daniels distillery, where it used to run the water wheel, disappears under a rock formation and cannot be tracked thereafter. Not saying this proves anything, just saying. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/68 "2006-10-30T02:33:13Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] **samclem** , he made exactly this claim in the previous thread. I immediately quoted him the passage from Randi in which Randi says that “real underground streams can occour.” Peter continues to claim that Randi says there are no underground rivers. [/QUOTE] I can show several places where Randi says that. The fact that he may have said something different occasionally doesn’t change that. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/69 "2006-10-30T02:33:28Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] For some reason - I will not venture to attempt to ascertain what reason that might be - you cling on to the notion “Randi believes water never flows underground” as if your life depended on it. But it’s just not true, and no-one believes that notion but you. [/QUOTE] Actually, I am relatively certain that Mr. Morris believes in Dowsing. The whole wet/dry, underground rivers that aren’t in caves thing is similar to the holocaust denier/moon landings conspiracist method of ignoring the whole “Multiple, unrelated, and impartial data sources all come to the same conclusion”-thing, and instead focussing on one particular data point or study that is indefinable, and making the shakiness of this **one** item (out of all the other items of proof) become a proof that the whole thing doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/70 "2006-10-30T02:33:32Z")
**Peter,** Why do you think that drilling and consulting surveys are equivalent methods of determining the location of water? ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/71 "2006-10-30T02:34:55Z")
Cite. I meant no **cite**. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/72 "2006-10-30T02:36:16Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] … holocaust denier… [/QUOTE] Thread over, you lose. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/73 "2006-10-30T02:36:21Z")
[QUOTE=Rilchiam] I have a feeling I’m going to regret this, but I give to you [Lost River Caverns](http://www.lostcave.com/cave1.htm), in Hellertown, PA. There’s also (sorry, no site) a river that runs through Lynchburg, TN, which, after it flows under the Jack Daniels distillery, where it used to run the water wheel, disappears under a rock formation and cannot be tracked thereafter. Not saying this proves anything, just saying. [/QUOTE] Peter Morris is ignoring the FACT that Mr. Randi acknowledges the existence of such places. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/74 "2006-10-30T02:37:57Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] I can show several places where Randi says that. [/QUOTE] Unless the word “that” should be in quotes, I don’t believe you. But please, prove me wrong. Show me several places (at least three) where Randi says, “there are NO underground rivers.” I’m not interested in seeing other quotes, where you’ve misunderstood modifiers (e.g., where he’s said that the underground river theory **that dowsers espouse** is false). Show me several places where he said, “there are NO underground rivers,” without qualifying modifiers. Or shut up. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/75 "2006-10-30T02:38:39Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] I can show several places where Randi says that. The fact that he may have said something different occasionally doesn’t change that. [/QUOTE] … Well, i’m convinced you’re an idiot. “Look, he says this here!” “He says something else here, though.” “Who cares what he says?!” ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/76 "2006-10-30T02:39:58Z")
[QUOTE=Rilchiam] I have a feeling I’m going to regret this, but I give to you [Lost River Caverns](http://www.lostcave.com/cave1.htm), in Hellertown, PA. There’s also (sorry, no site) a river that runs through Lynchburg, TN, which, after it flows under the Jack Daniels distillery, where it used to run the water wheel, disappears under a rock formation and cannot be tracked thereafter. Not saying this proves anything, just saying. [/QUOTE] FWIW, no one in this thread or the other one disputes the existence of water flowing underground. Hell, [The Talking Heads proved it already.](http://www.lyricsfreak.com/t/talking+heads/once+in+a+lifetime_20135070.html) ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/77 "2006-10-30T02:42:07Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] Peter Morris is ignoring the FACT that Mr. Randi acknowledges the existence of such places. [/QUOTE] But, you, are ignoring the FACT that Randi has \*\*denied \*\* the existence of such places far more often. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/78 "2006-10-30T02:42:58Z")
Shoulda pasted this, for those unwilling to click. Oddly preternatural. \*Letting the days go by/let the water hold me down Letting the days go by/water flowing underground Into the blue again/after the moneys gone Once in a lifetime/water flowing underground. \* SPOOKY. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/79 "2006-10-30T02:43:59Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] But, you, are ignoring the FACT that Randi has \*\*denied \*\* the existence of such places far more often. [/QUOTE] Cite? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2006, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359/80 "2006-10-30T02:44:00Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] **Peter,** Why do you think that drilling and consulting surveys are equivalent methods of determining the location of water? [/QUOTE] Bump. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-peter-morris-if-he-is-a-liar-or-a-troll-or-just-tell-him/378359.md?page=5)