# Ask the Anime Student! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 20, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-anime-student/304749 "2005-05-20T15:52:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-anime-student/304749/21 "2005-05-20T20:15:40Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > But, it kind of depends on what you like. Where, in the US there’s Disney and everything animated is made for kids–so it’s just all fluff anyhow. But once you’re making stuff for adult minds–you’ve got horror films, romances, actions, Sci-Fi, comedies, and of course people doing the nasty. Do your fellow students hold American style animation with the same contempt that you do? Because movies like the Lion King, Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, The Incredibles, and Toy Story are all very good movies that I’d qualify as being more then just “fluff.” I’ve seen Vampire Hunter D and gratuitous blood and guts doesn’t make something adult to me. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-anime-student/304749/22 "2005-05-21T04:34:24Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > Do your fellow students hold American style animation with the same contempt that you do? Because movies like the Lion King, Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, The Incredibles, and Toy Story are all very good movies that I’d qualify as being more then just “fluff.” I’ve seen Vampire Hunter D and gratuitous blood and guts doesn’t make something adult to me. :dubious: I meant fluff in the sense that no one cares about the genre of kids movies–they’re all kids movies and whether they are Bambi or the Incredibles, they’ll still all be lumped into a single category even those these movies should be considered as entirely unrelated. So considering these movies as fluff is something the American populace is doing–I’m just the guy stuck trying to think of a good adjective to describe that. I like good films regardless of the category (I even like Disney’s Alice in Wonderland), just as I stated earlier in the thread, I find it silly that US studios are limitting themselves to only creating movies for kids when some other guy has already shown you can make effective films for adults in it too. There are two Vampire Hunter D’s–the old one with various really ugly things getting sliced in half and guts pouring, and the new one which is a pretty solid film with probably a minimum of blood (I would have to verify–but fairly certain.) But still, if the original were playing in theaters, there wouln’t be a lot of people taking there 4’s and 8 year olds to it… But I do like…well heck, probably most American animation: Alice in Wonderland The Secret of NIMH The Incredibles The Dark Crystal (well, puppets) Beauty and the Beast Hunchback of Notre Dame An American Tale All Dogs go to Heaven Mulan Fantasia Toy Story 1/2 Shrek 1/2 Probably lots more, but a lot fo the Disney films (like Snow White or Dumbo) I haven’t seen since I was kid, so while I assume I would, I would have to watch them first. And then of course,just ones didn’t didn’t occur to me at the moment. And I of course, own several of the Ghibli films. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-anime-student/304749/23 "2005-05-21T05:29:36Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > So considering these movies as fluff is something the American populace is doing–I’m just the guy stuck trying to think of a good adjective to describe that. Wasn’t Beauty and the Beast nominated for best picture? > [@](#): > > I like good films regardless of the category (I even like Disney’s Alice in Wonderland), just as I stated earlier in the thread, I find it silly that US studios are limitting themselves to only creating movies for kids when some other guy has already shown you can make effective films for adults in it too. There have been plenty of animated motion pictures released in theaters that I’d argue were aimed directly at the adult market. Heavy Metal, Heavy Metal 2000, American Pop, Bebe’s Kids, Beavis and Butthead Do America, Eight Crazy Nights, The Nine Lives of Fritz the Cat, Fire and Ice, Final Fantasy the Spirits Within, and I’m sure there have been others. I don’t really buy that studios haven’t given adult oriented animated films a chance because clearly they have. Do animators in Japan feel as though adult oriented animated features haven’t had a chance? > [@](#): > > There are two Vampire Hunter D’s–the old one with various really ugly things getting sliced in half and guts pouring, and the new one which is a pretty solid film with probably a minimum of blood (I would have to verify–but fairly certain.) How mainstream is anime in Japan? Are anime fans in Japan similiar to those in the USA? Are there significant difference in the way Japanese animators tell stories vs. the way Americans tell stories? I confess that I sometimes have a hard time figuring out anime and I used to attribute that to bad dubs or subs. I thought maybe it was an issue of translation because I couldn’t explain otherwise why so many people liked Vampire Hunter D. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-anime-student/304749/24 "2005-05-21T05:57:43Z")
I’ve got a friend who wants to know if there are similiar kinds of schools for manga, since he wants to do what you’re doing but with cartoons instead of movies. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-anime-student/304749/25 "2005-05-21T06:43:00Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > Wasn’t Beauty and the Beast nominated for best picture? Not certain, but certainly possible. But I don’t think most people are willing to say that Disney’s Beauty and the Beast should be taken as seriously as say The Elephant Man or Apocalypse Now. Oscars include a whole variety of “greatnesses” including art, sound, songs, how good the competition was that year, and movie-land politics. > [@](#): > > There have been plenty of animated motion pictures released in theaters that I’d argue were aimed directly at the adult market. Certainly. But still these are targetted for limitted segments of the population who are already inclined to watch such things. If Peter Jackson’s the Lord of the Rings had been animated instead, I don’t think that as many people would have been willing to give it a shot–or if they did see the first they wouldn’t have been able to take it as seriously as they did the live action version that was released. Not that I think LOTR should have been animated–just that it is one where it might have been easier to do more and have everything merge together well if animated–but what will actually result is of course up to the script, director, and what he is comfortable with not the medium. > [@](#): > > I don’t really buy that studios haven’t given adult oriented animated films a chance because clearly they have. Do animators in Japan feel as though adult oriented animated features haven’t had a chance? I don’t think that studios will currently consider animation as a viable format for most any film. They would probably only accept ones targetted for a certain sub-group who is already guaranteed to turn out. (I would also note that most of the films you mentioned are Canadian or Japanese.) > [@](#): > > How mainstream is anime in Japan? Manga is more mainstream–just simply because it’s something to do on the train. So I would say 80% of everyone reads manga on the train or at least wouldn’t think anything of it even though it might not be their particular cup of tea. Anime is at a bit of a disadvantage–particularly for movies. There’s enough Hollywood films coming out that in general if you’re going to the movies you’ll do that. There isn’t enough time in the week to do basic things like watching TV or going to the movies in Japan (insane work hours.) TV has more stuff for everyone so you’ll catch snippets of conversation of 40 year old guys–who definitely aren’t anime geeks–watching Detective Conan and such. Still, most things released are targetted towards the core fan-base of anime here, simply because no one else has or will make the time. But since these people _all_ grew up reading comics and watching as Atom Boy became Devilman, there wouldn’t be a stigma towards the format itself–just against series that aren’t mainstream in content. > [@](#): > > Are anime fans in Japan similiar to those in the USA? Mostly. Hardcore fans of anything, anywhere are still fans. Though the societal pressures has resulted in some very scary people _shudders_ so certainly the truly scary quotient of fandom is larger here. But just at the level of dressing up like your favorite characters and going to conventions–not much difference between the otaku and the trekkies except their chosen focus-point. > [@](#): > > Are there significant difference in the way Japanese animators tell stories vs. the way Americans tell stories? There’s more “symbolism” in anime–like nose-bleeds when a guy sees something naughty–but these have developed over the last 50 years so everyone knows them so it’s just a good shorthand. The history is different–so what you are seeing today is the result of people building on the local genres with each generation–so where as “48 Hours” has evolved into “Rush Hour”, here “Macross” has gone on to become “Evangelion.” And then just basic differences from the fact that…well it’s Japanese making this not Americans. Certainly I am trying to pick up as many differences between the way Japanese approach a story to add to my own repertoire, but I would need to sit down with some videos to be able to compile a good list. :o > [@](#): > > I confess that I sometimes have a hard time figuring out anime and I used to attribute that to bad dubs or subs. Quite possible in many instances. > [@](#): > > I thought maybe it was an issue of translation because I couldn’t explain otherwise why so many people liked Vampire Hunter D. I didn’t care much for the original. Though, certainly seeing it on TV in the 80s was a bit of an "Oh my… :eek: " Personally I would vote that it’s being so removed from everything animated that anyone in the US knew at that time was its primary attraction. But in Japan, certainly by the 70s with Devilman the TV show[sup]1[/sup], they were already showing such extreme amounts of gore+nudity so that probably VH D wasn’t considered so bizarre. I think the most disturbing thing I have seen come out of professional anime[supe]2[/sup] was the original AD Police series–with the scene of a robot female having her body ripped open and breast-milk pouring out of her breast with blood… Alright that added nothing to the conversation. Anyhoo. [sup]1[/sup] The manga version of Devilman is, by the way, infinitely better–if not amazing [sup]2[/sup] We shall just politely ignore tentacle sex here. But I have still never seen an animated version–so my life is happier in at least one way. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-anime-student/304749/26 "2005-05-21T06:45:39Z")
> [@Silentgoldfish](#): > > I’ve got a friend who wants to know if there are similiar kinds of schools for manga, since he wants to do what you’re doing but with cartoons instead of movies. Yup. My school has a manga course (as well as voice actor classes, movie make-up effects, and model-making.) It should be fairly similar to mine–though our teacher said it had more homework. ---
**Author:** ![audreyayn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@audreyayn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/audreyayn)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-anime-student/304749/27 "2005-05-21T16:29:01Z")
For would-be animators, check out Pixar’s website. They have a list of animation schools in North America. Though to say there’s a huge demand for animators … well, CG animators, maybe. If you’re a newly graduated Traditional animator, you can work for free or outside your field or be extremely lucky. Things may change by the time your nephew graduates, of course. The entertainment industry is a good one because the less money people have, the more they spend on entertainment to forget how bad things are. I may know a couple people who fit the bill of knowing Japanese, being able to get in and also having art abilities. I’ll direct them to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-anime-student/304749/28 "2005-05-21T18:25:31Z")
> [@audreyayn](#): > > Though to say there’s a huge demand for animators … well, CG animators, maybe. Ah true. I was thinking more in terms of Japan where animation is booming or things like Pixar and gaming with 3D animation. ---
**Author:** ![Zoinks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/db5fbb/32.png) [@Zoinks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoinks)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-anime-student/304749/29 "2005-05-21T19:20:48Z")
[Kyoto Seika University](http://www.kyoto-seika.ac.jp/eng/index.html) has a School of Cartoon & Comic Art offering a major in exactly this kind of thing. It has two departments, Cartoon Art and Comic Art. It’s also the only Japanese university offering a major in cartoon and comic art. The courses are all taught in Japanese. Cartoon Art Courses: 1st Year: • Drawing 1-2, Design 1-2, Pictorial technique1-2 ,Intro to Manga - History 1-2, Caricature Discussion 1-2, Intro to Script/Scenario 1-2, Introduction to Editing 1-2. 2nd Year: • Training in cartoon 1-2, Caricature seminar 1-2, Illustration Seminar 1-2, Basic CG Seminar 1-2, Media History 1-2, Contemporary Media & Culture Seminar 1-2 3rd Year: •Training in cartoon 3-4, Caricature Discussion 3-4, Illustration Seminar 3-4, Contemporary Media & Culture seminar 3-4, Comparative manga discussion 1-2, Discussion of Contemporary Manga 1-2, Discussion of Contemporary Media/Culture 1-2. 4th Year: •Training in cartoon3-4, Free Work 1-2, Seminar on Critiquing Work 1-2, Evaluation 1-2, Graduation Work. Comic Art Curriculum: 1st Year: • Drawing 1-2, Design 1-2, Pictorial Technique1-2 , Basic CG Seminar 1-2, Media History 1-2 Introduction to Manga - History 1-2, Caricature Discussion 1-2, Introduction to Script/Scenario 1-2, Introduction to Editing 1-2. 2nd Year: • Training in Cartoon 1-2, Script/Scenario Seminar 1-2, Editing Seminar 1-2, CG Seminar 1-2, Contemporary Media & Culture Seminar 1-2, Animation Seminar 1-2, Media History 1-2, Discussion of Contemporary Media/Culture 1-2 3rd Year: •Training in Cartoon 3-4, Editing Seminar 3-4,Practical Seminar on Making Cartoons, Practical Training, Animation Seminar 3-4, CG Seminar 3-4, Comparative Manga Discussion 1-2, Discussion of Contemporary Manga 1-2, Discussion of Contemporary Media/Culture 2A-2B. 4th Year: •Training in Cartoon 5-6, Free Work 1-2, Seminar on Critiquing Work 1-2, Evaluation 1-2, Graduation Work. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-anime-student/304749/30 "2005-05-21T20:01:56Z")
Nifty, I never saw that when I was searching. That would get rid of issue number 2 as well if it’s a proper college! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Zoinks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/db5fbb/32.png) [@Zoinks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoinks)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-anime-student/304749/31 "2005-05-21T20:28:34Z")
Well, I believe the school has only 40 slots, competed for by 400 students annually, so it is rather competitive. Here is the website of one of the professors, an American cultural anthropologist with a special interest in shojo manga: [http://matt-thorn.com/index.html](http://matt-thorn.com/index.html) It’s also got lots of articles on shojo, manga, and American comics. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2005, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-anime-student/304749/32 "2005-05-28T22:13:19Z")
I’d just like to chime om to say that I think the distinction between adult anime as being discussed here and hentai is largely artificial. Take the anime Kite. Released in the U.S. in a censored version, it was considered a fine and wonderful anime by many. Then another distributor released a much less censored version, which include explicit sex scenes, and some reviewers were calling it “porn” and “trash.” My personal opinion is that the sex scenes added a lot to the anime, in terms of drama and characterization, because they showed how thoroughly the protagonist was being used by her lover (and his chief goon). I’ve seen out and out hentai that had respectible storylines and characterization sandwiched in with the sex scenes (“Wordsworth Saga” “Fencer of Minerva” and “Slave Market”) and others which were light hearted comedies where the sex scenes worked very well (“Dragon Pink” and “Darling”.) Perfect Blue, already cited here as a good anime, has a nude sex scene or two if I recall correctly. So there’s a tradition in Japan of mixing in stories and plots with their hentai … in some instances. Some hentai are just porn, though rarely as dull as American porn. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2005, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-anime-student/304749/33 "2005-05-29T20:51:40Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > Grave of the Fireflies - Anti-war film about two orphaned homeless children I have now watched _Grave of the Fireflies_ – very well done, but probably trhe saddest movie I’ve ever seen. It wasn’t the indiscriminate fire-bombing of residential areas, or the death of the mother that really got to me: it was the slow starving to death of the 4 year old Setsuko, with no one around her able or willing to help, that got to me. And it’s made worse because it’s based on a true story. For at least half-a-dozen reasons, it’s a movie that could not have been made in the US. And it was all so inevitable: you knew all the time what was going to happen, because it started at the end, with the death of the main character. ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2005, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-anime-student/304749/34 "2005-05-29T22:15:09Z")
**Sage Rat** , are you the only American at your school, or are there other American (or Western) students as well? What do your Japanese classmates think of you studying anime? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-anime-student/304749/35 "2005-05-30T07:47:20Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > I have now watched _Grave of the Fireflies_ – very well done, but probably trhe saddest movie I’ve ever seen. Yep ☹ I think that Grave of the Fireflies is the best movie I have ever seen that I never particularly want to watch again. (This would be followed by Eraserhead…) And anyone who reads this thread, if you haven’t seen this movie–this would be one movie that you really must see. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-anime-student/304749/36 "2005-05-30T08:01:12Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#): > > **Sage Rat** , are you the only American at your school, or are there other American (or Western) students as well? What do your Japanese classmates think of you studying anime? I am the only American (and Westerner) I know of. There is an option to have English Chat with a Real Live Native Speaker [sup]TM[/sup] but I don’t believe he is a member of the school.\* Certainly at the matriculation ceremony I didn’t spot anyone (which marks off half of everyone as it is a two year course.) I am not certain if there are any Chinese, Koreans, or other nearbyers; there are not in my class at least. Not certain yet if anyone has any particular thoughts about me. I have to maintain a regular job besides school for my visa, so I haven’t had much chance to buddy around after classes. However, I suspect that it’s one of those “Well yeah, there’s the purple elephant in our class… But, well he is such a nice elephant!” So I think after any initial feelings, they pretty much just all view me as another member of the class. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-anime-student/304749/37 "2005-05-31T05:01:59Z")
**Sage Rat** , I’ve been curious about this next question for a while, maybe you can shed some light for me. I’m no anime/manga expert by any means, but I’ve noticed that there are elements of Christian theology or symbolism included in several Japanese series I’ve seen (_Neon Genesis Evangelion_, _Demon Ororon_, _Trigun_, etc.). Crosses, angels, demons, God, priests, and other distinctly Christian elements often appear, even if they have an odd twist to them. I know that the population of Japan is predominantly Shinto or Buddhist, with only a tiny Christian minority. So I’ve wondered: is there an element of exoticism for the Japanese with Christian symbolism, much like the West’s fascination with Japanese culture? Or am I just totally misreading this? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-anime-student/304749/38 "2005-05-31T08:59:37Z")
Well, just to caution your thinking a bit, I would point out that Shinto and Buddhist things pop up about evenly with Christian. For instance, in Trigun you have the Christian priest, Blue Seed is all very Shintoist, and Inuyasha has a Buddhist priest. Still, that’s not saying it doesn’t pop up more than there are followers.\* For most appearances, I think the big thing would be either “it’s not Japanese”–that is, it is foreign and exciting–or simply because the setting of the story makes it seem more likely. Trigun, my guess would be because of the setting: The story is about an Old West type place. Demon Ororon I haven’t seen–but guessing from the name I would imagine they were going for the coolness effect that wouldn’t follow with home-brewed Buddhist demons. Evangelion however, I’m not sure I can say for certain. Certainly the story itself draws a lot from Freud–so it might be that they were trying to keep with a Western-thinking background due to that. Of course, Gainax also made the Wings of Honeamise which has one character who comes across a bit as a Christian–so it may be that one of the people at that studio is Christian. So far as I am aware Buddhism has all the demons and symbols you could ever want to do the same level of everything that is done with Christianity–but I think it just strikes people as being more fuddy-duddy here to see images of Buddha instead of a cross. - People who proclaim themselves “Shinto followers” are roughly even with Christians according to my professor in college–each being about 3.5% of the population I believe. There was then something like 65% for Buddhist–though I doubt that this means much to all but a minority of that 65%. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-anime-student/304749/39 "2005-05-31T09:33:05Z")
A useful resource [http://denbeste.nu/Chizumatic/](http://denbeste.nu/Chizumatic/) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-anime-student/304749.md?page=1)