# Ask the Arab Guy **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 12, 2004, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-arab-guy/244807 "2004-05-12T16:01:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-arab-guy/244807/61 "2004-05-13T13:35:55Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Why do you want to discuss this with me? I just find it interesting that if you have already developed your answer to the question you asked in the first place, and describe any other answer as “look (ing) everywhere else but in the mirror when placing responsibility for own mismanagement and incompetence”, I wonder why you ask the question in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-arab-guy/244807/62 "2004-05-13T13:36:31Z")
> [@Angua](#): > > I’m going to jump in here, and say this much. Islam advocates, nay, _demands_ the utmost respect for women. Some cultures however, do not. You’re confusing what the religion demands with what some misguided individuals interpret as ‘religion’ in an attempt to justify their own behaviour. Doesn’t just happen with Islam. Respect can have strange faces. The Taliban for instance also professed to respect women deeply and described them as blossoms that should be protected and sheltered from the world and the lusting eyes of men. If that’s respect, I’d take contempt any day of the week. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-arab-guy/244807/63 "2004-05-13T13:42:05Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > I just find it interesting that if you have already developed your answer to the question you asked in the first place, and describe any other answer as “look (ing) everywhere else but in the mirror when placing responsibility for own mismanagement and incompetence”, I wonder why you ask the question in the first place. Why do you think I have developed my own answer? I have no idea what Bib’s answer to this would be. And it interests me because should he hold, like you apparently, that the Arabs themselves are mostly blameless in the way they’re perceived and especially in the state of the Arab world, I’d be greatly interested in hearing how he came to such a conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-arab-guy/244807/64 "2004-05-13T13:45:44Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Respect can have strange faces. The Taliban for instance also professed to respect women deeply and described them as blossoms that should be protected and sheltered from the world and the lusting eyes of men. If that’s respect, I’d take contempt any day of the week. The Taliban are NOT representative of real, moderate Muslim thought. ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-arab-guy/244807/65 "2004-05-13T14:06:12Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > In that case, I sincerely apologise, and thanks for setting me straight. As I say, I’m by no means a scholar of either Islamic theology or history, so my comment was made in ignorance rather than malice. Hoewever, I do remember reading that at least one Shi’ite sect believed in the divinity of one of the Caliphs, and I suppose I got them confused with the Ismailis. My bad…🙂 I believe you are thinking of the [Druzes](http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/islam/shia/druze.html), an off-shoot of the Ismailis branch, that believe in the divinity of Abu 'Ali al-Mansur al-Hakim. Thanks for this thread; it’s been interesting so far. I’m hoping that it’s not in the process of being derailed. ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-arab-guy/244807/66 "2004-05-13T14:12:53Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > So, when I hear a Muslim guy talk about how much he respects and honors women, I just don’t believe it. It’s like a white Southerner in the U.S. during the 50s talking about how blacks are treated equally as whites are, just … separately. I wouldn’t believe a word he was saying either. Your analogy switches from religion to culture. In the 50s, would you have said that Christianity supported segregation, Jim Crow, and lynchings because the people who supported these would have identified themselves as Christian? ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-arab-guy/244807/67 "2004-05-13T15:17:36Z")
> [@JeffB](#): > > Your analogy switches from religion to culture. In the 50s, would you have said that Christianity supported segregation, Jim Crow, and lynchings because the people who supported these would have identified themselves as Christian? Having grown up a Baptist in Texas with Baptist relatives, I would say that while Christianity in general did not support segregation, Christianity as practiced by white southerners very categorically did. My mother remembers sermons being preached against black people. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-arab-guy/244807/68 "2004-05-13T15:27:12Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Why do you think I have developed my own answer? I have no idea what Bib’s answer to this would be. And it interests me because should he hold, like you apparently, that the Arabs themselves are mostly blameless in the way they’re perceived and especially in the state of the Arab world, I’d be greatly interested in hearing how he came to such a conclusion. Where did I say they were blameless? reread my post. I’ve read your opinions about islam on these boards and consider your question loaded. I’m going to bow out as I think it’s an unfair hijack of Bib’s thread. ---
**Author:** ![Jennyrosity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@Jennyrosity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jennyrosity)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-arab-guy/244807/69 "2004-05-13T15:48:45Z")
I’ve agonized over whether to post this as I’m worried it could sound offensive - that really isn’t my intention. I’ve noticed a lot of Arab men are far more blatant when looking at women than western men are. While caucasian men will look, but will immediatly look away when you notice them doing it, Arab men seem unembarassed to be caught watching you, and will continue to do so even when it’s clear you’re aware they are doing so. I don’t think I dress in a particularly revealing way, FWIW. Do you think there’s a reason for this Bib, or am I imagining it? ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-arab-guy/244807/70 "2004-05-13T15:51:32Z")
**Bibliovore** , this thread is amazingly helpful, since it gives me a view of what it is like to be a modern Muslim as well as what it’s like being an Arab in the modern world. Once the thread goes away or dies down, where can I go for a routine glimpse into modern Middle Eastern events from an Arabic perspective? Are there any news outlets in the Middle East that you feel represent the voice of the more moderate Muslims (be they Arabs, Persians, etc.)? Also, a slightly easier one: I’ve been warned, should I travel to the Middle East, that certain cultural perceptions there can result in me making embarrassing mistakes. These include the perceptions that: - the left hand is dirty/unclean - the soles of the feet are unspeakably filthy and contact with them is insulting - a Muslim must take in any guest for three[sup]?[/sup] days if he is able - if a guest admires something in your home, it is only polite to make a gift of it - it is impolite for a man to ask another married man how his wife and daughters are; rather he should ask after the man’s “family” or “sons” or “children” How widespread are these? And how seriously are they taken within (and outside) the Middle East? ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-arab-guy/244807/71 "2004-05-13T16:09:43Z")
If this is too personal just ignore it. How heavy was societal and parental pressure for you to date/marry an Arab. Have you dated non-muslims? Could you see yourself marrying one? Would your family be disappointed? completely pissed off? ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-arab-guy/244807/72 "2004-05-13T16:22:37Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Tell me Bibliovore, whom do you think are to blame for the negative perception of Arabs in general and Moslems in particular? And further who do you think are mainly to blame for the sad state of the Arab world today? Why, the Jews of course. Don’t you know they control the world’s media? 😃 I kid, I kid. The real answer is actually pretty complicated, because Islamophobia and Anti-arab racism are by no means recent phenomenons. Orientalists have been depicting us as cruel and godless barbarians for ages, and if you go back even further you have the Crusades. The fact is that Arabs have always been regarded as “the other”. Saracens, Moors, Wogs, Sand Niggers, Dune Coons, Towelheads, call us what you will. The epithets have changed over the years, but the attitudes haven’t. Look at Hollywood movies like “True Lies”, “Delta Force”, and a host of others. The Evil Arab Terrorist has been a favourite movie bad guy for years. Having said that, I don’t think we’re entirely blameless. We’re not doing ourselves any favours with some of these patriarchal regimes, or with grups like the Taliban who deny women the religiously mandated right to equal education. Yes, there is a lot of blatant racism out there, but I think it’s all too easy for us to fall into the role of the oppressed victim. Instead of wringing our hands and bemoaning the intolerable state of affairs, we could be doing more to educate people about Islam and confronting these stereotypes by fighting ignorance (the old SDMB credo!). There are groups out there like CAIR - the Council for American Islamic Relations - who have done some incredible work in this field and continue to do so. More advocacy Groups like this are what’s needed. As for Arab countries, I really don’t know. I don’t think you can blame the people for some of the crooks who are in power at the moment, because it’s not as if they actually voted these guys in. I know for a fact that there is wodespread dissatisfaction and anger at the current regimes, and many grass-roots movements to kick them out. However, i don’t know why we haven’t had more revolutions or coups to kick these guys out of power. Granted, brutal crackdowns on dissidents, secret police, and torture might have something to do with it, but I don’t know why some of these tyrants have lasted as long as they have. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-arab-guy/244807/73 "2004-05-13T16:45:19Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Y’know, I read your words about Muslim respect for women, etc., and I take them with a grain of salt, Bibliovore. Because I have to balance them against all the shit that I know goes on against women in the Arab world: the honor killings, the “get in the back of the bus” stuff, the religious police in Saudi Arabia who can beat women who are behaving “indecently” the way women are forbidden to show themselves on the street without a male escort in some societies. I know not all Arabic societies are the same in this respect: Saudi Arabia and Iran would probably be about the worst, with Egypt being more liberal. But I think most Western women would regard Egypt as oppressive if they had to live under the strictures imposed on Muslim women there. > > So, when I hear a Muslim guy talk about how much he respects and honors women, I just don’t believe it. It’s like a white Southerner in the U.S. during the 50s talking about how blacks are treated equally as whites are, just … separately. I wouldn’t believe a word he was saying either. He’d probably also say that black people (OK, in the 50s he’d probably say ‘niggers’) are OK so long as they know their place and act right, and I get the feeling it’s the same in the Arab world WRT women in many countries – women are to be respected and honored, so long as they behave properly. They get outta line and it just might be honor killing time, just as blacks who got out of line in the South of the 50s might get lynched. > > Now I know you live in England and have a different viewpoint than a Middle Eastern homeboy, but do you see why I am cynical? And what’s your response? I understand completely, and I don’t blame you for being cynical at all. The fact is that a lot of that stuff does happen. First off, let me make it clear that I’m talking about Arabs here, rather than Muslims. The reason I make the distinction is that not all Muslims are Arabs, and vice-versa. There are Muslims all over the world, of every race and nationality, and I don’t think you’re saying that all of them are mysoginists… So, having made that distinction, yes, some Arabic countries are very patriarchal and definitely have a problem when it comes to the fair and equitable treatment of women. But these things happen _despite_ the religion, not because of it. Honour killings, for example, have nothing to do with Islam, and everything to do with bullshit patriarchal notions of family honour. In short, I’d say it’s cultural rather than religious. Of course some of these countries will oppress women and then point to a passage in the Quran and claim that it justifies their actions, but that’s bullshit, and people have been using the same ploy to justify all sorts of evil actions for millenia. So the reason I’ve been raised to treat women with respect is because that’s what I was taught it says in the Quran. Every Manager I’ve ever worked for has been a woman, and I genuinely have no problem with that. I fully uphold a woman’s right to property, to education, to divorce, to respect and love and equality. I believe in all these things because that’s what’s right, and because that’s what it says in the Quran. You don’t have to believe that I actually feel that way, that’s up to you, but I don’t blame you for being sceptical 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-arab-guy/244807/74 "2004-05-13T16:50:34Z")
Just another quick post to say that I genuinely appreciate all the questions so far. I fully intend to answer each one, just as soon as I get home and grab a bite to eat. Catch you in a bit…🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-arab-guy/244807/75 "2004-05-13T16:51:26Z")
[quite=Evil Captor]when I hear a Muslim guy talk about how much he respects and honors women, I just don’t believe it. [/quote] You’re cherry-picking the worst regimes in the Muslim world to criticise. Don’t forget Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. where women have equal rights. Or are you muddling ‘Muslim’ up with ‘Arab’? In which case, take a look at Qatar, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Bahrain. Still patriarchal, but not as ghastly as you make out. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-arab-guy/244807/76 "2004-05-13T17:00:20Z")
Honour killings are a cultural phenomenon, rather than religious. And they aren’t restricted to the Middle East. Alot of North African countries can report instances of such, and that they would occur in the christian communities also. ---
**Author:** ![bbart4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/51bf81/32.png) [@bbart4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bbart4)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-arab-guy/244807/77 "2004-05-13T17:10:22Z")
Evil Captor, Cultural and religion shouldn’t be confused. Just want to point out that a few hundred million muslims live outside the Arab world. For example, Indonesia with about 190 mil. muslims has a woman president (she may not survive the upcoming election though, but that’s another story). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-arab-guy/244807/78 "2004-05-13T17:22:27Z")
> [@JeffB](#): > > Your analogy switches from religion to culture. In the 50s, would you have said that Christianity supported segregation, Jim Crow, and lynchings because the people who supported these would have identified themselves as Christian? I’m talking about the religion and how it’s practiced on the ground. Frex, Christianity has a blanket condemnation of killing in the Bible. “Thou shalt not kill” plain as day. But you see all sort of Christians and Christians leaders supporting killing in wartime and in the case of the death penalty. So I’d say that overall, Christianity supports killing in some instances, despite what the bible says. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-arab-guy/244807/79 "2004-05-13T17:29:47Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > So I’d say that overall, Christianity supports killing in some instances, despite what the bible says. Make that, overall **Christians** support killing in some instances. ---
**Author:** ![liirogue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dbc845/32.png) [@liirogue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liirogue)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-arab-guy/244807/80 "2004-05-13T17:49:47Z")
**Evil Captor** , may I recommend a book? I used to feel the exact same way you do (honestly). Until I read this book and a few other articles. [Arab Women: Between Defiance and Restraint](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1566561876/qid=1084470351/sr=8-13/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i13_xgl14/102-3768504-8503321?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) It is a compilation of essays written by Muslim women, and edited by a Muslim women. These women are (all? mostly?) Western educated - they discuss everything from daily life to politics, and what, if anything, Americans can do about it. It is an easy, entertaining read. Also, about the honor killings. Those are not as common and frequent as the Western media would like you to believe. And as others have said, it is cultural, not religious. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-arab-guy/244807.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-arab-guy/244807.md?page=5)