# Ask the atheist psychologist who did ayuahasca yesterday. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 24, 2016, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-atheist-psychologist-who-did-ayuahasca-yesterday/763794 "2016-08-24T09:26:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-atheist-psychologist-who-did-ayuahasca-yesterday/763794/61 "2016-09-02T09:02:34Z")
As for the long term use… I’ve been scouring the 'net for positive as well as negative results for long-term effects of ayuahasca, but found mostly positive reports. If anyone can point me to negative results, I’d be interested. This study [http://reset.me/study/study-ayahuasca-has-no-long-term-negative-effects/](http://reset.me/study/study-ayahuasca-has-no-long-term-negative-effects/) > [@](#): > > A 2012 study conducted by the Hospital Sant Pau in Barcelona drove home the message with scientific rigor. > The research looked at 127 people who had used ayahuasca at least twice a month for 15 years and compared them to a group who had never taken the substance. > After undergoing a series of interviews and tests, the study found that there is “no evidence of psychological maladjustment, mental health deterioration or cognitive impairment in the ayahuasca-using group.” The psychedelic users even scored better in some of the cognitive tests than their counterparts. > … > Ayahuasca users also showed lower rates of depression, anxiety, hostility, worry and other negative traits than the control subjects, and higher in self-transcendence and spiritual orientation. “Taken together,” the study says, “the data point at better general mental health and bio-psycho-social adaptation in the ayahuasca-using group compared to the control subjects.” > …Throughout all, the evidence remained consistent: ayahuasca does not cause long-term harm to its users. > The study was funded by the International Center for Ethnobotanical Education, Research & Service, or ICEERS. Although there is no specific evidence of harm, ICEERS recommends that people with heart conditions and people who take serotonin-related drugs like antidepressants avoid ayahuasca as a precaution. > The 2012 study does caution that there was a certain amount of self-selection when it came to the subjects — anyone who had experienced harm from ayahuasca would presumably not continue to take it consistently for fifteen years. However, the science on how the substance works on the brain corroborates reports of beneficial results. Ayahuasca allows the brain to bypass its built-up pathways, meaning, for example, that people are able to overcome ingrained responses to a stimulus based on past trauma. Users are actually able to reset some of the brain’s connections to heal past wounds, in other words. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-atheist-psychologist-who-did-ayuahasca-yesterday/763794/62 "2016-09-02T09:48:32Z")
And by negative effects, I don’t mean the effects of improper use. Ayuahasca tourism is booming in South America, and with such a boom come fake sjamans looking for easy cash. “Sjamans” that are little better then drug peddlers. They will let people participate that have heart problems, are on SSRI anti depressants, or are at immediate risk for psychosis. They won’t have valium at hand to administer in case of a panic attack. They won’t speak the language of the tripper, so they can’t talk him down or calm him. [People have died in such sham “ceremonies” and have never been heard from again.](http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/the-dark-side-of-ayahuasca-20130215) But I would be interested in research pointing to negative long term effects, while used properly and cautiously. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-atheist-psychologist-who-did-ayuahasca-yesterday/763794/63 "2016-09-02T18:25:03Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > As for the long term use… I’ve been scouring the 'net for positive as well as negative results for long-term effects of ayuahasca, but found mostly positive reports. If anyone can point me to negative results, I’d be interested. > > This study [http://reset.me/study/study-ayahuasca-has-no-long-term-negative-effects/](http://reset.me/study/study-ayahuasca-has-no-long-term-negative-effects/) Just an anecdote about what you quoted, specifically this: "Ayahuasca users also showed lower rates of depression, anxiety, hostility, worry and other negative traits than the control subjects, and higher in self-transcendence and spiritual orientation. “Taken together,” the study says, “the data point at better general mental health and bio-psycho-social adaptation in the ayahuasca-using group compared to the control subjects.” I saw a show on TV, on History or some such years ago, about a guy who went down to some small village somewhere in South America to take aya with the village. Apparantly the village takes it once a month as a community event and there is a festival and food and stuff. And one of the leaders said he’s being doing it every month his whole adult life. The reason the village does it is to bring the community together and get all the bad mojo out that may have built up since last month. He also told an anecdote about someone from another village was caught trying to steal food or something from them but they caught him and as punishment they made him take aya to try to make him a better person who would help the village instead of harming it. The elders guided him to want to be a better person and to want to help the village. After that they took care of him for a couple of days and then asked him to remain with the village and be one of their own and he did. That’s about all I remember from that show. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-atheist-psychologist-who-did-ayuahasca-yesterday/763794/64 "2019-08-23T03:01:37Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I rather suspect the experience was more or less the same; what differs is the post-experience descriptions. 😉 > > Indeed, I’m rather of the opinion that the fundamental “experience” is pretty well similar across the board, but that extreme difficulties occur when people attempt any sort of description; it gets tinged with personal and cultural expectations, as one would expect. > > The best we can do is catch the “flavor” from one another’s accounts. I think that people from different cultures and backgrounds can indeed transcend them, and recognize each other as having a similar reaction: as an atheist, I can see the value in (say) Christian mysticism, as an example. > > I like your description, that you can’t have music without instruments, and that you need the animal parts. I think that is very true. > > I guess what I’d get at is that the experience can _sound_ awfully alienating: you see yourself in the ‘long perspective’, which may _sound_ awfully belittling; but it isn’t - it’s exhilarating and liberating. > > For me at least, it has gone a long way to eliminating my fear of death. It isn’t that I suddenly grew a belief in an afterlife, just the opposite: I grew a sense that I was, as it were, a living part of a grand design, and what is important - what must and will survive - is the design; the goal here is to make that design more awesome, and one can do that by (basically) living life to the full, exploring and investigating reality to the best of one’s ability, not harming others, and not harming one’s environment - by good stewardship and balance. I hate to break it to you, but none of that is true. It’s just what I would like to call our imagination mixed with survival instinct, it’s why you don’t see Buddhists taking this stuff and why when Ram Dass offered it to a yogi he said it was close but not there. You had an experience, but that was it. It doesn’t mean anything unless you make it so. Also to the post above, you left out the ones who get horribly scarred by the experience. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-atheist-psychologist-who-did-ayuahasca-yesterday/763794/65 "2019-08-23T04:14:45Z")
Thank you. I would say that from meditating I have some experience of the phenomena you summarized from Watts, but never of contact with a greater universal life force. To say it another way, perhaps, I have a cognitive but not affective experience of the numinous, and thus still characterize myself as an atheist, albeit one who ponders these things a great deal. /also a psychologist ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-atheist-psychologist-who-did-ayuahasca-yesterday/763794/66 "2019-08-23T04:19:55Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I hate to break it to you, but none of that is true. It’s just what I would like to call our imagination mixed with survival instinct, it’s why you don’t see Buddhists taking this stuff and why when Ram Dass offered it to a yogi he said it was close but not there. > > You had an experience, but that was it. It doesn’t mean anything unless you make it so. > > Also to the post above, you left out the ones who get horribly scarred by the experience. I hate to break it to you, but **Malthus** , the poster you quoted, hasn’t been active since 6/19/18. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-atheist-psychologist-who-did-ayuahasca-yesterday/763794/67 "2019-08-23T05:48:30Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > I hate to break it to you, but **Malthus** , the poster you quoted, hasn’t been active since 6/19/18. Doesn’t seem fair. Machinaforce put a lot of time into that reply. Also, tomorrow is the third birthday of that Malthus post. I’m not sure why but I feel like that should be a mitigating factor. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-atheist-psychologist-who-did-ayuahasca-yesterday/763794/68 "2019-08-23T06:37:25Z")
It’s almost like it SHOULD happen like this. Woo! ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-atheist-psychologist-who-did-ayuahasca-yesterday/763794/69 "2019-08-23T07:19:01Z")
> [@carnalk](#): > > doesn’t seem fair. Machinaforce put a lot of time into that reply. Also, tomorrow is the third birthday of that malthus post. I’m not sure why but i feel like that should be a mitigating factor. 🎂🎂🎂 ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-atheist-psychologist-who-did-ayuahasca-yesterday/763794/70 "2019-08-23T13:22:04Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I hate to break it to you, but none of that is true. It’s just what I would like to call our imagination mixed with survival instinct, it’s why you don’t see Buddhists taking this stuff and why when Ram Dass offered it to a yogi he said it was close but not there. > > You had an experience, but that was it. It doesn’t mean anything unless you make it so. > > Also to the post above, you left out the ones who get horribly scarred by the experience. Ramd-Ass, Shmamed-Ass… Jokes aside; for all the hell you catch in your pointless meanderings in other threads, you should be given credit where credit is due, for this lucid and rational analysis. Good on ya. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-atheist-psychologist-who-did-ayuahasca-yesterday/763794/71 "2019-08-23T13:25:53Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I hate to break it to you, but none of that is true. It’s just what I would like to call our imagination mixed with survival instinct, it’s why you don’t see Buddhists taking this stuff and why when Ram Dass offered it to a yogi he said it was close but not there. > > You had an experience, but that was it. It doesn’t mean anything unless you make it so. > > Also to the post above, you left out the ones who get horribly scarred by the experience. So you aren’t getting enough attention in your own “woe is me, life has no meaning but _man_ is Buddhism great” threads and now must dig up other old threads where you can play the same broken record? ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-atheist-psychologist-who-did-ayuahasca-yesterday/763794/72 "2019-08-23T13:33:30Z")
Machinaforce, i asked above if anyone can point me to people horribly scarred by ayahuasca, if taken in a responsibly organized ceremony. I know of two instances, and both are not good examples. There’s a videoclip of a woman thrashing on a river beach, like she’s having a bad trip. And there was a news message of a death in the Netherlands, which I know for a fact to be a suicide days after a ayahuasca ceremony - where the guy was turned away from because he had ingested sinething that would have been incompatible with taking ayahuasca. So who are these people that were horribly scarred? ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-atheist-psychologist-who-did-ayuahasca-yesterday/763794/73 "2019-08-24T05:23:08Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Machinaforce, i asked above if anyone can point me to people horribly scarred by ayahuasca, if taken in a responsibly organized ceremony. > > I know of two instances, and both are not good examples. There’s a videoclip of a woman thrashing on a river beach, like she’s having a bad trip. And there was a news message of a death in the Netherlands, which I know for a fact to be a suicide days after a ayahuasca ceremony - where the guy was turned away from because he had ingested sinething that would have been incompatible with taking ayahuasca. > > So who are these people that were horribly scarred? You won’t see videos of them because it would be bad for the tourism. As for the effects, purely imaginary. There are not great insights to be gained from it and all that people get out of it are what they project onto it, like most of reality. There is no purpose to life or grand design, it’s just a void were you live and then you die (in the short part, there is a lot in between). Also Alan Watts isn’t a credible source on anything, especially considering that one book he wrote. But I guess people will believe anything to escape the grip of the void, even that a drug lets you see god. ---
**Author:** ![ataraxy22](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ataraxy22/32/307_2.png) [@ataraxy22](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ataraxy22)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-atheist-psychologist-who-did-ayuahasca-yesterday/763794/74 "2019-08-24T05:53:23Z")
What’s the permanent + to intelligence and creative post ayuahasca? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-atheist-psychologist-who-did-ayuahasca-yesterday/763794/75 "2019-08-24T06:48:07Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > You won’t see videos of them because it would be bad for the tourism. So what is your source of information? ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-atheist-psychologist-who-did-ayuahasca-yesterday/763794/76 "2019-08-24T09:50:06Z")
Ataraxy, ayahuasca has been legal for 17+ years now in Brazil, and the question you ask has been studied in depth, as well as long term. The result is: people who attend ayahuasca ceremonies (once a month or forthnight) for years, in generally do somewhat better then a control group. Mostly with regard to mental health, but they also do slightly better intellectually. Of course, it is hard to control for selection. People with whom ayahuasca doesn’t agree, just don’t take it anymore. As use has become more wide spread, and therefore attracts a group who may use or dispense ayahuasca less responsibly, some problems have emerged. You can read up yourself on Google scholar and on [pubmed.gov](http://pubmed.gov) if you like. [Google Scholar](https://scholar.google.nl/scholar?q=long+term+ayahuasca+use&hl=nl&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart) As for creativity, my impression is that after ayahuasca one’s subjects may change, and one’s outlook on the world, but not the level of creativity- if such a thing is measurable, anyway. I can hear it in some music when the artist had used ayahuasca. Like Xavier Rudd, or Sting, or Nessi Gomes. There’s also a whole genre if ayahuasca music on YouTube. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-atheist-psychologist-who-did-ayuahasca-yesterday/763794/77 "2019-08-24T10:02:11Z")
Machinaforce, I take it you are not unwilling to hurt tourism, so I ask: have you seen these videos, or have you only heard of them? And what do you think of all the first hand accounts on youtube of people describing their ayahuasca experience? I also think it worth mentioning that there is no criminality or exploitation involved in ayahuasca, as far as I know or have experienced. I think I know why. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-atheist-psychologist-who-did-ayuahasca-yesterday/763794/78 "2019-08-24T12:06:41Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > You won’t see videos of them because it would be bad for the tourism. > > As for the effects, purely imaginary. ‘There is a vast conspiracy to protect tourism by suppressing these videos. I _know_ this because… well, I just _know_ it. This isn’t imaginary. This isn’t all in my mind like the rest of the universe, which is unreal because the Buddhists say so. This is real!’  🤣 ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-atheist-psychologist-who-did-ayuahasca-yesterday/763794/79 "2019-08-24T18:16:20Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Machinaforce, I take it you are not unwilling to hurt tourism, so I ask: have you seen these videos, or have you only heard of them? > > And what do you think of all the first hand accounts on youtube of people describing their ayahuasca experience? > > I also think it worth mentioning that there is no criminality or exploitation involved in ayahuasca, as far as I know or have experienced. I think I know why. I don’t give the firsthand accounts of it much value any more than those who say they say aliens, god, ghosts, etc. It’s just an experience and only really means whatever people want it to. It’s powerful sure, and people think that it has to mean something. But considering we are the same species that says they see Jesus on toast or how clouds look like certain things (bear in mind that this is just our conception of things so unless someone knows what you are talking about a cloud is a cloud and doesn’t look like anything) I’m still going to say that it’s their imagination plus the drug, mostly the drug. If the accounts are consistent then you can most likely just chalk it up to the effects of the drug. People try to cope with the inherent meaninglessness/purposelessness of reality so they believe such experiences mean something or reveal something. Spoiler: they don’t. Bear in mind the people describing their experience are just affixing meaning to something that is inherently meaningless. Anything they believe they gained is more likely their fabrication, like people who say they saw God and it told them X or Y. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-atheist-psychologist-who-did-ayuahasca-yesterday/763794/80 "2019-08-24T19:20:46Z")
And being an atheist psychologist doesn’t mean much of anything when it comes to the truth of what you are trying to claim. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-atheist-psychologist-who-did-ayuahasca-yesterday/763794.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-atheist-psychologist-who-did-ayuahasca-yesterday/763794.md?page=5)