This is a sentiment I’ve seen expressed both here and elsewhere many, many, many, many times.
As an American, I’ve always taken it as a given when other Americans say “I’m Irish” or “I’m Italian” that they’re referring to their ethnic heritage. It’s not as if anyone would think that they hold Irish or Italian citizenship, or that they speak Irish Gaelic or Italian neccesarily, or whatever. Its a shorthand way of describing one’s ancestry, rather than saying “Well my ancestors came from the general vicinity of what is now known as the borderlands between blah blah.” A lot of Americans also take great pride in their ancestry (you may hear Americans proudly rattle off twenty or so ethnicities in their bloodline if asked their ethnic origin). I personally am just as proud of my Mestee sharecropper ancestors as I am of my blue-blooded plantation owner ancestors; they all loved and struggled and died so that I could be here, that I might have opportunities in this life.
I’m not sure if Europeans (I’ve never come across Asians or Africans complaining about their American cousins saying “I’m Chinese” or what-have-you, although presumably it happens) are just confused by this practice or outright offended. All I can say is that I highly doubt that any American who excitedly tells you “Oh I’m Welsh, too!” is doing it to personally offend you or somehow denigrate your culture. He or she is probably just excited to find some kind of cousinship with you, a bit of shared history. Now I don’t suppose it’s any obligation of yours to consider these Welsh-Americans your brothers and sisters under the skin. Just remember that they are most likely saying that because they are *proud *to associate themselves with your native land.
Sheesh, the Chinese certainly are *appaled *that someone with Chinese ancestry can not speak Chinese fluently. They simply don’t get the melting pot that is America. In fact, it’s very common to call someone with Chinese ancestry a “banana.” Meaning yellow (Chinese) on the outside and white on the inside.
Me, though, I’m Welsh. Or my great-grandfather was. I’m not sure if my Grandfather was from the old country or born in the US of A. I met my first real Welshman when I was 30+ years old in Hong Kong. So, there ya go!
What is the core of your interest in Celtic Studies? What is the central issue there that fascinates you? (This might sound kind of snide, but it totally isn’t – I ask as a recovering academic myself.)
In my experience, Europeans are more amused than offended. They get that Americans don’t really think they’re Irish or whatever, they’re just bemused that we would think we had any connection at all based on heritage. And that varies widely by situation. In a cohesive community, sometimes culture persists for generations, and there are Whatever-Americans who really are quite Whateverish. There are also Whatever-Americans who are not at all Whateverish. What’s distinctive, therefore odd to others, is our need to claim the identity. But then, we also talk about being American here in America a lot more than the Whatevers talk about being Whateverish in Whateverria.
I’m hooked on the Mabinogion, a medieval Welsh text. It’s very weird, and so unbelievably rich: eleven very short stories I’ve been reading for years, and everytime I look there’s another layer, another complexity, another angle.
I’m curious what exactly learning a language as a reading language means. Does that mean, for example, you can write a letter in Irish and read an Irish newspaper but not answer the phone in Irish?
Well, I have heard people make this defence before.
Firstly, I think it’s a bit of a whitewash. There are clearly many Americans who do think that they’re ‘Irish’ in particular-- I know a few. If you want some evidence, and to amuse yourself for awhile, look at some of the Irish groups on facebook. Many of the discussion boards are full of shouting matches, with Irish people on the one hand saying that the Americans are not Irish, and the American ‘Irish’ shouting that they are. So what you say can’t be the whole story: in my experience many Americans do think there’s some connection more significant than mere ancestry.
But even if you are right, it’s still slightly weird when people go on about their ancestry (even if they don’t think this makes them Welsh).
For a start, this shows a (to my mind) odd interest in blood and race–really, who cares where your genetics come from? It’s not like it has any connection to your present life. Just last week my decidedly American hairdresser said something like “I’m Italian so I tend to have a short temper”. Er, ok, borderline racist lady. Being ‘proud’ of your ancestors, except for specific achievements, also strikes me as weird.
The phenomenon also tends to overlook the massive diversity of origins in (eg) European countries. The way people here sometimes talk, each European country is an ethnically distinct and homogeneous block of people who arose there. There have certainly been no population movements between European countries. Instead, they are ‘sources’ or ‘ingredients’ for the uniquely diverse America. That’s why you end up with stupidly offensive ads like this:
There’s also the linguistic issue, here. Even if you are right (which I suppose you are) that “I’m xish” means, in American English, “I’m American with x ancestry” (itself a weird testament to an odd American insularity, with American as the ‘default’), that is not what those terms mean in the rest of the world.
But Dr. Drake is right, in the end the only thing to do is be amused. But this is something that often riles Europeans when they first spend a lot of time with Americans.
Yes, sort of, except my writing skills aren’t that great, either. I need to be able to understand texts written in Irish, and I can practice that on my own. I don’t need anyone to understand my Irish, written or spoken, so I don’t practice it. When I’ve been around Irish speakers I only understand isolated words and phrases. So I do have some writing / speaking / comprehension skills, but I don’t work at them, and they’re rudimentary compared to my reading skills, which I do work on.
Yes. The Mabinogion. Very, very weird. There seems to be a recurring thing where the heroes, when they want to kill or disable their enemies, either trick or force them into a bag and then beat them to death. Other heroic tales, from other cultures, usually have their heroes defeat their enemies in face-to-face combat (well, maybe not the Greeks). I remember this – it happens in a couple of the stories. I enjoyed it immensely.
Okay, just one more question about the whole ‘Irish-American’ thing; I realize that it’s not really your are of academic expertise, Dr. Drake, but this thread seems to have the ear of Irish and Irish-American alike. Is/was there a generational shift in this attitude? I guess I’m thinking mainly of the stereotype of older Irish folk and older Irish pubs that would display pictures of John Kennedy on their walls, and the myriad Irish tunes about emigration to Canada or Amerikay performed by musicians on both sides of the Atlantic. Is the disassociation from the so-called Irish Diaspora a recent phenomenon, or have the Irish who stayed home always been amused those who went abroad and their progeny calling themselves ‘Irish’?
Edit: What about the Irish in England, for that matter? I know I’ve heard Liverpudlians like Paul McCartney and Londoners like Johnny Rotten refer to themselves as ‘Irish’ on occasion.
Actually, the tricking someone into a bag and beating them to death crops up fairly often in Nordic stories too. I recall in particular a folksy story about Espen Askeladd tricking the devil into a walnut and betting a blacksmith he couldn’t crack the nut open. Old Eric was not amused.
That’s an international folk motif, K842: Dupe persuaded to take prisoner’s place in a sack: killed. The Motif-Index of Folk Literature lists examples from Indonesia to Europe and from the West Indies. Motif K711.1 is Deception into magic bag which closes on prisoner, listed only for Ireland and Wales, but I wouldn’t be surprised to find Norse parallels. I don’t know that anyone has written on that specifically but there has been a lot of study (with no firm conclusions) over the fact that linguistically, Celts are closer to Romans, but mythologically they seem to share a lot with Germanic culture, presumably due to contact but possibly a substrate. The shared features are things like having “Mercury” as their chief god (Woden / Lug, respectively), an innovation not inherited from Indo-European religion.
Yeah, I’m just an opinionated layman here. I don’t really know the answer. There a probably a lot of factors.
Generational is one: I think people in general are just less wedded to the notion of national character as an inheritable trait. I know my mother has stated that she is Irish while her sister (whom she doesn’t like) is German, even though they’re the same both culturally and genetically.
Regional is another. If you come from Boston, you come from a community with a continuing trickle of Irish immigration and one that maintains ties to Ireland. Not so much if you’re from Wyoming.
Marketing is another. Ever been to an Irish Fair? I don’t know why Irish musicians in Ireland play immigration songs; I assume because it’s just one branch of their musical tradition. Here, though, they sell an idea: you’re a victim of diaspora and you have a community.
Well, it looks like you’re going to hear it again. If these Americans feel this connection to their ancestral homeland, then that’s their business. They may feel strongly that they are Irish by birthright. Nevertheless, as I said before, people don’t assume they mean they actually hold Irish citizenship or grew up there.
I personally don’t understand what’s so odd about having an interest in your ‘blood’ or your ‘race’. It’s no odder to my mind than being interested in drag-racing or stamp-collecting or what have you. Regardless, if someone is interested in their ancestry and proud to be whatever they are, then that is their business and they don’t need approval from anyone else. It’s not your call if I or anyone else am proud of our ancestors because they did something you consider worthy of veneration. But you needn’t worry about me at any rate, as I won’t tell you I’m of British descent with any pride. If someone else will, that’s their prerogative. As I said before, you don’t have any obligation to accept it or like it.
I do find it insulting when people, European or otherwise, imply that I am interested in genealogy or my ethnic background because I’m trying to find a ‘group’ to belong to. I won’t speak for others, but I have a strong regional and ethnic identity of my own and I don’t need to have an ‘Irish’ or ‘Scots-Irish’ or whatever identity in addition to that.
Are you fluent in Breton? Can you translate for me?
(I’m actually serious, I’m an anthematologist, and I haven’t found a good translation of the Breton anthem in English yet. Best I could find was French lyrics, which I could translate, but they didn’t seem to match with the Breton that I know (perhaps the French lyrics are independent of the Breton ones).
Is there a good resource you could recommend for folklore, etc. pertaining to the Orkney Islands, hopefully with pre-Christian or even pre-Roman material?
Where did you get your master’s/doctorate? What’s the climate like in terms of teaching opportunities?
I ask because I really, really love this stuff–I have since I was a kid, even though it’s not part of my heritage–and had been trying to find programs. My Google-Fu was lacking.
Well, it’s different everywhere I suppose. But on the whole I prefer the notion that one is accepted as an American with some background or other for entertainment value to the local belief, reflected in the law, that one is irrevokably Not Dutch as long as one of one’s parents was born in another country. And despite the diversity of origin you mention (after all, the current Queen, the Crown Prince, and all the little Princesses are officially Not Dutch, not to mention Geert Wilders, champion of kicking 'em out) the Dutch surely talk as though there is a ethnically distinct and homogeneous block of people who Are Dutch from whom all us foreigners are to be distinguished. Recently there has been some effort to distinguish desirable Not Dutch (western) from undesirable Not Dutch (not western), but whether it will get any traction remains to be seen. It is all a matter of how you look at it I suppose, but on the whole I prefer the notion that one is accepted as belonging to the notion that one can never belong untill all traces of foreignness have been expunged.
Or my great-grandfather was. I’m not sure if my Grandfather was from the old country or born in the US of A. I met my first real Welshman when I was 30+ years old in Hong Kong. So, there ya go!