# Ask the Commie Bastard! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 22, 2000, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-commie-bastard/23190 "2000-06-22T14:53:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2000, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-commie-bastard/23190/121 "2000-06-27T21:40:52Z")
I think we do. My point is that why are people selfish? Of course they have the capacity to be selfish, just as they have the capacity to rape 4 year olds. Is everyone born with this capacity? Yes. Is it determined that they will be selfish or rape 4 year olds? No. There is of course the chance that will happen if social circumstances are right. But, there is nothing iherent in human nature that says that that will happen. It can and has happened. ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2000, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-commie-bastard/23190/122 "2000-06-27T21:56:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > I think we do. My point is that why are people selfish? Of course they have the capacity to be selfish, just as they have the capacity to rape 4 year olds. Is everyone born with this capacity? Yes. Is it determined that they will be selfish or rape 4 year olds? No. There is of course the chance that will happen if social circumstances are right. But, there is nothing iherent in human nature that says that that will happen. It can and has happened. > \*\* I think I see where our approaches differ. You argue human nature from the _tabula rasa_ perspective, whereas I argue it from a socio-historical perspective. From your POV, anything is possible for an individual within certain bounds, therefore anything is possible that also stays within those bounds for society. From my perspective, I see the range of behaviors exhibited in the past as being a fairly good indicator of behaviors that will arise in the future. The farther back you go, the less this is true, just as the predictions you can make would be less accurate the further into the future you forecast them. By my POV, our past behaviors indicate to me that our future patterns will remain very like what we have now for many years to come, and since selfishness (and the others) have been around for as long as we can remember, I postulate that they will be around for a long time to come. Have I got your take on it right anyway? ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2000, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-commie-bastard/23190/123 "2000-06-27T22:09:18Z")
Somewhat. Here is where I agree with you. Looking at human behavior under a certain set of circumstances is a good indication of how people will react given those circumstances in the future. I don’t believe that you can get rid of selfishness under capitalism or any kind of class society. I do believe that by changing our environment we can change our behavior. Of course no one will disagree with this. What people disagree with is how much it can actually change, and what actually creates those “bad” traits in humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2000, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-commie-bastard/23190/124 "2000-06-28T00:34:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > Somewhat. Here is where I agree with you. Looking at human behavior under a certain set of circumstances is a good indication of how people will react given those circumstances in the future. I don’t believe that you can get rid of selfishness under capitalism or any kind of class society. I do believe that by changing our environment we can change our behavior. Of course no one will disagree with this. What people disagree with is how much it can actually change, and what actually creates those “bad” traits in humanity. > \*\* So, if you don’t believe we can get rid of selfishness under capitalism, how then are we to arrive at communism? It sounds like a chicken and egg thing. ---
**Author:** ![goaheadcaller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@goaheadcaller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/goaheadcaller)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2000, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-commie-bastard/23190/125 "2000-06-28T05:01:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > goaheadcaller, > > Thank you for adding your experience. If we are truly to fight ignorance I think it is good for these romantics who embrace socialism to get a dose of reality. By the way, how long have you lived in Russia? If you just got there recently, you’re catching the recovery. You missed the real fun that was communism, Russian Style. > \*\* I’m going on my second year here (I’m a Southerner living in Siberia, yikes). I have also studied at Moscow State University in '96 and travelled through the region for work. I have a BA in Russian Studies and an MA in International Relations with a focus on the NIS, so I have thought a lot about these issues. I must say that if you put yourself out there as a Commie Bastard and then only want to answer the easy questions, you really aren’t serving any purpose. As for myself, I want to know how you can reconcile the untold misery of communism as practiced with your theories? I have seen it written that the USSR was not a truly communist state, but were Lenin, Trotsky and the others true Communists? Was Mao? I would argue that they were. Some might reach the conclusion that when true communists try to build communism, they end up with something else entirely. A great deal of harm has been done in this world, by well meaning visionaries who want to ram their version of utopia down the throats of others and when I see people espousing communism without addressing its legacy I will always call them on it, just as I will always challenge Nazi appologists. Again I ask (and not for the last time, I’m sure), how do you reconcile communism as theorized with communism as it has been practiced in every single instance in history? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2000, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-commie-bastard/23190/126 "2000-06-28T17:09:59Z")
Hi **Commie Bastards**! I hope you don’t give up on this thread, because I for one am interested in the answers. If I may, I would like to piggyback on **Libertarian** ’s question with a remark of his in a different thread: > [@](#): > > The simple proof, given by Hayek in _The Fatal Conceit_, that socialist governments are incapable of setting prices is what brought down socialism. (I think he is using “socialism” here to mean the governments of, e.g., the USSR and Eastern Europe that you object to calling “socialist”, but that’s not the main issue as I see it.) Agree? Disagree? Comments? Thanks, Kimstu ---
**Author:** ![tradesilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/439d5e/32.png) [@tradesilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tradesilicon)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2000, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-commie-bastard/23190/127 "2000-06-28T19:09:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Riiight. Like the bunch of you are any more interested in what we have to say. Actually, I do care. I find it disturbing, but I care, otherwise I would not post to the thread at all. > [@](#): > > Listen, oldscratch - this is a bigger headache than I wanted it to be. We’re going around in circles with people who only showed up because they wanted to shout us down. There were a couple of people like matt\_mcl and Eve with a legitimate interest in debate, but that quickly got drowned out. So I’m all for tying a rock to this thing and letting it sink to the bottom. The world’s got enough demagoguery in it without providing another forum for it in the SDMB. That is not what I want to see. Please do not interpret anything I said as wanting to shut you off! I would never expect to have that kind of effect. It’s your thread, I’ll stay out. I made my point, and also have tried in several posts to atone for a harsh beginning. Please continue. If you simply don’t have time a definitely understand. > [@](#): > > Oh, tradesilicon - apparently I misremembered the phrase I’d heard a while ago - the word I’m looking for is blesna, which I honestly feel applies to the lot of you. Dang, another one I don’t know. That’s the worst - being insulted, and not understanding the insult! Man, I’m devastated by this most of all (seriously). ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2000, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-commie-bastard/23190/128 "2000-06-28T19:10:12Z")
> [@](#): > > From Pthalis:\*\* > So, if you don’t believe we can get rid of selfishness under capitalism, how then are we to arrive at communism? It sounds like a chicken and egg thing. \*\* It is sort of like the chicken and the egg. The answer is that both have to come at the same time. One of the central tenets of communism is self-determination. Not just because it sounds warm and fuzzy, but because it’s necessary for socialism to work. Cuba illustrates the problem well. Castro came in a implemented “communism” aside from some other problems with it (that I won’t go into here), the problem was that he instituted it top down. No ones attitude changed, racism, sexism, homophobia, all of those things still existed. In a Socialist revolution, as people realize that the problem isn’t their neighbor or the illegal immigrant, but that the real problem is the state and capitalists, attitudes change. People get over their racism and sexism, people start to come together. And when people actually take control of the government for themselves, they get filled with a sense of optimism. You actually do see people throwing themselves into everything with a new passion. This happened in Russia, it happened in Spain, many other places too. > [@](#): > > From goaheadcaller:\*\* > I have seen it written that the USSR was not a truly communist state, but were Lenin, Trotsky and the others true Communists? Was Mao? I would argue that they were. Some might reach the conclusion that when true communists try to build communism, they end up with something else entirely. \*\* Lenin and Trotsky were communists. Mao was not. Why? Mao carried out a peasant revolution. It had nothing to do with communism or the working class. A term you will hear for referring to those states is “State Capitalism”. The countries are simply capitalist states where all private property is controlled by the state as opposed to individuals. Since Mao and Pol Pot and Castro weren’t actually trying for communism; 1, they weren’t communists; 2, of course they didn’t get communist countries. Russia is a bit more complicated. An actual working class revolution occurred there. The same revolution spread to several other countries. That revolution was crushed both from within and without. Stalinism replaced it. We’ve already touched on why that happened, if you’d like more detail it can be provided. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Again I ask (and not for the last time, I’m sure), how do you reconcile communism as theorized with communism as it has been practiced in every single instance in history? \*\* As you would know if you had bothered reading, most of those instances weren’t communism. What communists instead look to, as has been stated earlier, is the revolutions of Spain, of Chile, of Portugal, fights that are happening currently, and of course the Paris Commune. > [@](#): > > From Kimstu:\*\* > (I think he is using “socialism” here to mean the governments of, e.g., the USSR and Eastern Europe that you object to calling “socialist”, but that’s not the main issue as I see it.) Agree? Disagree? Comments? \*\* Well. Three things. One. That is not what brought down Socialism as we see it. What brought that down are the attacks of other countries. Two. I don’t actually think that’s what brings down “socialist”, as Lib refers to them, countries. What actually caused the failure of most of them is the simple failure to survive as a “capital” in a capitalist economy. They failed much the same way a corporation who is under intense trading pressure would. They were forced to put in to many resources to try and keep up with competition. As they didn’t have the resources of many Capitalist countries, they failed. Now this is a vast oversimplification, and I’m sure this subject will be touched upon later. Three. Would the Fatal Conceit apply to real socialism? I’m not sure, but my initial reaction is no. I’m going to do some more reading before I actually respond though. ---
**Author:** ![Tretiak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a88e57/32.png) [@Tretiak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tretiak)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2000, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-commie-bastard/23190/129 "2000-06-28T20:07:25Z")
There are really two issues being brought up here. The debate over whether human nature can adapt to the requirements of socialism. The other is whether a centrally planned economy can allocate scarce resources (including labor) as effectively as capitalism given the lack of a pricing signal. It seems in this discussion the former problem is getting most of the attention. But it would be a mistake to assume that even if the socialist conception of human nature could be accepted that socialism would likely suceed. This is due to it’s inability to decide what gets made, how gets made, who does what, who gets what, etc. Even with everyone acting in perfect harmony with a common goal these decsions would still be astonishingly difficult without a fre market pricing system that practically defines capitalism. Prices are information regarding scarcity and wants. Under so-called socialist countries prices are replaced by queues and shortages. This is the point of Hayek’s The Fatal Conceit. The Conceit is not that socialism fails due to human nature, but fails due to an ability to efficiently make sure that society’s needs and wants are met using the scarce resources available to it. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2000, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-commie-bastard/23190/130 "2000-06-28T20:12:50Z")
**Tretiak** And don’t forget time. The information, as soon as it is captured, is immediately old and irrelevant. (Welcome, by the way.) ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2000, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-commie-bastard/23190/131 "2000-06-28T21:36:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > From Pthalis:\*\* > > So, if you don’t believe we can get rid of selfishness under capitalism, how then are we to arrive at communism? It sounds like a chicken and egg thing. > > \*\* > > It is sort of like the chicken and the egg. The answer is that both have to come at the same time. One of the central tenets of communism is self-determination. Not just because it sounds warm and fuzzy, but because it’s necessary for socialism to work. > > Cuba illustrates the problem well. Castro came in a implemented “communism” aside from some other problems with it (that I won’t go into here), the problem was that he instituted it top down. No ones attitude changed, racism, sexism, homophobia, all of those things still existed. > > In a Socialist revolution, as people realize that the problem isn’t their neighbor or the illegal immigrant, but that the real problem is the state and capitalists, attitudes change. People get over their racism and sexism, people start to come together. And when people actually take control of the government for themselves, they get filled with a sense of optimism. You actually do see people throwing themselves into everything with a new passion. This happened in Russia, it happened in Spain, many other places too. > \*\* Well, all I can say is that judging by my experiences, and by history, I can’t see it being at all likely, let alone inevitable. Simply put, I think that you have an overwhelmingly more optimistic view of humanity than is warranted, my friend. It would be nice though, if you turned out to be correct in your assessment of human nature after all. ---
**Author:** ![Sneevil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/41988e/32.png) [@Sneevil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sneevil)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2000, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-commie-bastard/23190/132 "2000-06-29T03:40:28Z")
How many commie bastids (lined up one behind the other) will a 5.56 mm bullet fired from an AK-47 penetrate before coming to rest? ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2000, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-commie-bastard/23190/133 "2000-06-29T14:04:00Z")
I find it really disturbing that people think they can get away with comments like the above in a political thread that would get them flamed, banned, or worse in a thread like “Ask the Gay Guy”. **Sneevil** , pat yourself on the back for this one. You’ve gotten me pissed off enough to get a lock on this thread and let it die a natural death at the bottom of the forum. After you’re done inflating your ego, take your smug, self-satisfied attitude and shove it up your hairy troll ass. **DavidB** or **Gaudere** - please do me the honor and lock this puppy up. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2000, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-commie-bastard/23190/134 "2000-06-29T23:41:29Z")
[Moderator Hat ON] Locked at the request of the OP (BTW, an email request in additon to a post is usually best). And _Sheeeeeesh_, what a remark, sneevil. I won’t even warn Olentzero for insulting people in GD after _that_ little bon mot of yours. I hope to not see any further comments like that from you in this forum, sneevil. [Moderator Hat OFF] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-commie-bastard/23190.md?page=6)