# Ask the Conservative Christian Theologian! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 18, 2005, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conservative-christian-theologian/299849 "2005-04-18T04:29:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conservative-christian-theologian/299849/21 "2005-04-18T14:01:01Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > I see no posts by anybody with your name there. Tell us what name were posting under in that thread, so we know which are the writings you are referring to. > > Or better still, simply state your beliefs on the subject here so people don’t have to refer to another thread. **Theologue** is [in there](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5572356&postcount=15). The gist of his argument is that there is no Hell, only annihilation for sinners. Scripturally he’s correct in that the Bible says nothing about an eternal Hell for sinners. My next question: If it’s so important to God for people to believe the Christian myth, why didn’t he offer any evidence? Why make salvation conditional upon nothing but a wild guess as to which religion of thousands is the correct one. Incidentally, your point about a “resurrection” being the best explanation for the “Easter event” is not only presuming its own conclusion (in that it assumes the appearance narratives describe a historical event) it’s not even logically sound. Natural explanations, however unlikely, must always be preferred over supernatural ones. In the case of the “Easter event,” though, we don’t even have proof of any real historical event, we have stories written by non-eyewitnesses many decades after the facts. We have no first hand accounts of anything and no genuine historical coroborration of any kind that anyone ever claimed to have seen a physically resurrected Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conservative-christian-theologian/299849/22 "2005-04-18T14:05:59Z")
> [@EmeraldGrue](#): > > Hi **Theologue** , > > My evangelical fundamentalist Christian friends tend to have books by people like Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell, and it was always my understanding that it wasn’t really theology – pop theology, if you will, with only tenuous links to the real stuff. Something like [these pop philosophy books](http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/sim-explorer/explore-items/-/0415261295/0/ref=pd_simmore_dp_1/026-2724095-2352405) as compared to Kant’s Critique of Pure Reason. Do I have the right idea here? Also, are there any books by actual theologians that one could expect to find in a major bookstore like Indigo or Barnes & Noble? Strobel and McDowell are lay apologists, not theologians. They are popular with those who are already converted and who do not think too deeply on arguments. Both of them are child’s play to refute. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conservative-christian-theologian/299849/23 "2005-04-18T14:19:21Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > If I may be allowed a small rudeness on behalf of FriarTed, I suspect his answer will be, “Because He told us so.” Excuse me? Theologue, would it be compromising your situation to tell us what denomination you’re with? Also, how do your fellow con’tive C’tians regard your Conditionalist views? And what of those without an adequate witness of the Gospel. (I’m Conditonalist first, with Hopeful Universalism & the Eastern Orthodox view of Eternal Hellfire as the Love of God experienced by those closed to Him. And I hold to a Last Probation for the unreached to hear & accept Christ. All this as a member in the Assemblies of God- oy!) ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conservative-christian-theologian/299849/24 "2005-04-18T14:23:36Z")
> [@Theologue](#): > > I have a high view of the Bible and believe it is inspired by God, but I do not believe that it is absolutely inerrant. That is the biggest difference theologically. This sentence set you light years ahead of the fundie flock… 🙂 I certainly think the Bible is mythology elevated to extremes by rabid beleivers. So I guess your thread isn’t pit worthy (yet). ``` What do you think of atheists ? Be brutal and honest please... ``` ---
**Author:** ![FriendRob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecc23a/32.png) [@FriendRob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendRob)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conservative-christian-theologian/299849/25 "2005-04-18T15:33:47Z")
Do you consider Biblical teachings determinative for the way you live your life? If so, how do you decide which writings ought to be considered part of the Bible? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conservative-christian-theologian/299849/26 "2005-04-18T16:00:29Z")
Are any sex acts between consenting adults a sin? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conservative-christian-theologian/299849/27 "2005-04-18T16:17:37Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > **Theologue** is [in there](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5572356&postcount=15). Do’h! Not sure how I missed that, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Theologue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@Theologue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theologue)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conservative-christian-theologian/299849/28 "2005-04-18T16:22:52Z")
It’s late where I am now so I will have to be brief in response to a few of the comments. **EmeraldGrue** , you are correct. A decent systematic theology book—not a monograph on a section thereof—should run at least a thousand pages, although condensations are often available. To name a few favorites, I like J. Rodman Williams, Millard Erickson, Alister McGrath, Clark Pinnock, and Karl Barth. Barnes & Noble and the like probably have some, but it’s been a while since I’ve been to a bookstore in the U.S. ([Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com) is my friend.) Most Christian “bookstores” in the U.S. should not be described as such. Usually only a quarter of the floor space is actually devoted to books, and the theology section is minuscule. Libraries are also good. People expect faith to be very simple. It can be lived that, quite often with excellent results (I enjoyed reading Strobel), but ultimately it is not simple. We must acknowledge that the earth, the universe, our own bodies are exceedingly complicated. Why should we expect the God who created them to be any less so? **FriarTed** , I’m not officially with any denomination, but informally, I too am with the Assemblies of God. Where I am at, denominational labels are not that important. At my college we have all sorts of mainliners, and we have even had a Roman Catholic priest preach at our church. I’ve been allowed in the pulpits of different churches whose U.S. counterparts probably wouldn’t let me. So far I haven’t had problems with conditionalism, though I don’t push it. I also hang out with people more liberal than I. Segueing into other topics, I believe eternal life is the positive gift of God for those who believe in Jesus Christ. The opposite of “eternal life” is not eternal life of a very bad sort, the traditional understanding of hell, but “death.” Rom. 6:23. Death != eternal life of any sort. The Scriptures also teach that all who have ever lived will live again to face judgment (Rev. 12:13). It is my hope that, upon seeing the blessed vision, those who seek it will receive mercy, but that is not disclosed in Scripture. **Rashak Mani** , I love atheists, because God has told me to, and like it or not, you are made in his image. I enjoy the company of a lot different kinds of people who are very different from myself. One thing we need to acknowledge is that we live in different worlds and it will take a lot careful thought and reflection, not quick judgment, to understand one another. I must say I am put off by some of the rabid atheists I’ve seen on television and in the news. Hey, let’s make a deal—let’s not judge others by their representatives we see on TV… there’s a thought… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conservative-christian-theologian/299849/29 "2005-04-18T16:26:01Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > … the Eastern Orthodox view of Eternal Hellfire as the Love of God experienced by those closed to Him. And I hold to a Last Probation for the unreached to hear & accept Christ… Eternal damnation is the love of God? Huh? Wha? My daughter is insolent and disrespectful, I ground her, I take the T-Bird away, I don’t break her kneecaps with a hammer! The doctrine of damnation is a cruel and heartless absurdity, exceeded only by the doctrine of infant damnation in its vileness. I could not but loathe such a god, never mind worship, I could only hope to find the courage to defy such a cosmic tyrant. When the rational mind is applied to spiritual matters, theology results. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conservative-christian-theologian/299849/30 "2005-04-18T16:32:00Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Eternal damnation is the love of God? Huh? Wha? My daughter is insolent and disrespectful, I ground her, I take the T-Bird away, I don’t break her kneecaps with a hammer! The doctrine of damnation is a cruel and heartless absurdity, exceeded only by the doctrine of infant damnation in its vileness. I could not but loathe such a god, never mind worship, I could only hope to find the courage to defy such a cosmic tyrant. > > When the rational mind is applied to spiritual matters, theology results. I think I understand what **FriarTed** means by that, actually. The Love of God is the the Love of God, regardless of who feels it or how they feel it, but those who believe in and wish to be near Him will feel it as blissful warmth and those who do not believe or choose not to be near him will feel it as eternal burning pain. It’s the same thing, regardless of who is feeling it, but it feels _different_ depending on your viewpoint. In other words, God is not deliberately torturing people’s souls for eternity, but rather because of the viewpoint they choose to hold, those people are causing themselves to suffer needlessly from the closeness of God. Being as I more or less reject the entire construct, I have no opinion of my own to offer on that interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conservative-christian-theologian/299849/31 "2005-04-18T16:36:26Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Eternal damnation is the love of God? Huh? Wha? My daughter is insolent and disrespectful, I ground her, I take the T-Bird away, I don’t break her kneecaps with a hammer! You’re misunderstanding what he’s saying. When your daughter is disrespectful, you ground her, take the T-Bird away, or whatever, but her real punishment, even more than that, is that she feels bad for upsetting you. That’s what **FriarTed** is saying…that eternal damnation, as he sees it, isn’t a punishment…it’s our own conscience and guilt working on us. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conservative-christian-theologian/299849/32 "2005-04-18T16:43:45Z")
That whole thing about God’s love tasting like burning makes no sense to me whatever. How does that work mechanically? What’s going on spacially and temporally? I get that it’s a poetic allegory but it doesn’t really convey any information. Conscience and guilt? I don’t have a scrap of guilt about not believing in God or for rejecting Christian soteriology as being logically indefensible. Even if God were to reveal himself as real after my death or on judgement day, that would still be no reason for me to feel guilty about the conclusions I have drawn from the evidence available before that time. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conservative-christian-theologian/299849/33 "2005-04-18T16:45:59Z")
I don’t have the background or the belief for it to do apologetics. I’m just stating my understanding of what **FriarTed** was talking about… ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conservative-christian-theologian/299849/34 "2005-04-18T16:46:58Z")
jayjay totally understood my position Capt A - interesting take but not what I meant (such regret may actually result in repentance & openness to God’s Love) elucidator- what I mean, to use your analogy, is your daughter totally hates you & all you stand for & all your efforts to show love to her are seen as attempts to control her, so either you just keep loving her & become immune to her rejection or you just cut her loose totally. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conservative-christian-theologian/299849/35 "2005-04-18T16:48:55Z")
Hi, **Theologue**. My question, do you believe that Mary is the Mother of God, and if not, how do you manage to not believe it without denying the deity of Christ? Most Protestants I’ve talked to on this issue usually ending falling on their tushes into a big pile of Nestorianism. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conservative-christian-theologian/299849/36 "2005-04-18T16:53:02Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I don’t have the background or the belief for it to do apologetics. I’m just stating my understanding of what **FriarTed** was talking about… I got that. My questions were intended to be addressed to **FriarTed** and any others who hold to that view of “punishment.” Sorry for any misunderstanding. **Friar** , how can I hate something that I don’t believe exists? How can I be held responsible for not being able to guess which religion is the correct one without any evidence or hints (especially when so much of the sacred scripture of that religion is proveably ahistorical, wildly contradictory, and riddled with factual errors?) ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conservative-christian-theologian/299849/37 "2005-04-18T16:58:25Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > **Friar** , how can I hate something that I don’t believe exists? How can I be held responsible for not being able to guess which religion is the correct one without any evidence or hints Romans 1 says you have; obviously you don’t agree, and I’m sympathetic. But that’s not an argument that will be resolved on earth. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conservative-christian-theologian/299849/38 "2005-04-18T16:59:15Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > That whole thing about God’s love tasting like burning makes no sense to me whatever. How does that work mechanically? What’s going on spacially and temporally? I get that it’s a poetic allegory but it doesn’t really convey any information. > > Conscience and guilt? I don’t have a scrap of guilt about not believing in God or for rejecting Christian soteriology as being logically indefensible. Even if God were to reveal himself as real after my death or on judgement day, that would still be no reason for me to feel guilty about the conclusions I have drawn from the evidence available before that time. Unless in the Judgement process, you were shown every moment you could have chosen to trust God/Jesus & instead rejected Them (unless there were no such moments). For an example of what I mean - let’s assume for a moment the Gospel accounts give a basically accurate presentation of the works & words of Jesus and how his enemies responded to him- so we have a man who does actual undisputed miracles & teaches both the love/grace and the moral perfection of God who is totally hated by some people to the point they want to torture-kill him. THAT is what I mean. There have even be some people in the Board who have said something similar to “if the Bible accurately depicts God, I’d rather spit in His face than worship him”, and who feel totally free making obscene jokes about Jesus or dismissive comments about His agony. Well, they may well just get to stew in their pettiness while the Triune Yahweh undeniable & inescapably reigns over them. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conservative-christian-theologian/299849/39 "2005-04-18T17:05:55Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Romans 1 says you have; obviously you don’t agree, and I’m sympathetic. But that’s not an argument that will be resolved on earth. Are you kidding me? :dubious: Romans 1 says God has revealed himself in creation and so I “have no excuse” and that’s supposed to be a proof of something? 😛 Romans is wrong. Sorry. God has revealed nothing that I can see. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conservative-christian-theologian/299849/40 "2005-04-18T17:06:06Z")
I don’t think it is pettiness. I think it is the fact that there is no more reason to believe in christ, then their is to believe in Odin, or Thor. Thus, if a person is brought before “God”, when asked why he didn’t believe in the right god, the answer is that he didn’t leave enough clues. Also, life has quite a lot of cruelty, along with quite a lot of niceness. To evoke the concept that the good outweighs the bad, or any another way of claiming the world is proof that god loves us has too many holes in it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conservative-christian-theologian/299849.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conservative-christian-theologian/299849.md?page=3)