# Ask the conspiracy theorist **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 27, 2012, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conspiracy-theorist/639012 "2012-10-27T05:07:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conspiracy-theorist/639012/601 "2013-02-21T00:20:35Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > there’s supposedly the Jews, Hmm. I’m preeeety sure the Jews exist. Unless that’s just what they WANT me to think. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conspiracy-theorist/639012/602 "2013-02-21T00:22:46Z")
I’m not going to harass you on this further. I actually think you’re a very interesting guy, and I hope you’re not taking anything I say as an attempt by me to offend you. I do have a question: what was the point of your insane person/insane king question a few posts ago? I’m totally puzzled by what you were driving at. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conspiracy-theorist/639012/603 "2013-02-21T00:32:33Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Excellent question. I will answer and explain. > > There’s the Mafia and Al Qaeda, there were the communists of the USSR and et. al., there’s supposedly the Jews, there’s the royal family, and there’s the Pope, and then there’s countries; China, India, The United States, ect. > > The Mafia, arguably, are a shadow of their former self. Al Qaeda (and the War on Terror) will go the way of the USSR (and the Cold War). As for the communists of the USSR and et. al., they were revolutionaries and the Illuminati will make all revolutionaries look like amatuers. The Jews are not part of any conspiracy as far as I know and, as for conspiracy theories go, are a red herring. However, the royal family and the Pope are the real deal, and I believe that members of the royal family, if not the Pope, know the Illuminati. > > The existence of the royal family and the Pope imply that the Illuminati exists. > > Not proof, not even evidence - an indication. > > So you understand that there can be (1) organizations in which the members, structure and methods are all well documented and easily found and that there can be (2) organizations in which the members, structures and methods are unknown. > > (1) indicates (2). I don’t get how any of this follows. Your assertion seems to be a tautology- “the Mafia and Papacy indicate the Illuminati exists because the Mafia and Papacy exist”- which doesn’t make any sense. Is the only point you’re arguing that “there is a non-zero chance that the Illuminati exists”? If that’s your point, then fine- I accept it. But I don’t accept that there’s any proof, evidence, or any indication that the Illuminati is more likely to exist then, say, a hypothetical secret and powerful organization of spaghetti worshipers. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conspiracy-theorist/639012/604 "2013-02-21T00:40:24Z")
**Koz** I will concede the an act of Terrorism can be a crime and can be an act of war, but it can also be both, 9/11 surely qualifies as both. I and others here have pointed out that you appear to have a very superficial understanding of how Foreign Relations, Diplomacy, Politics and Projection of Force (amongst other concepts) play out in the real world. I have a book that I think you need to read. It will help you understand how and why a lot of these relations play out. It comes in a Penguin Classic abridged edition that leaves out most of the actual military stuff, so it is not as dense and will be a great place to get the modern world. Should cost $5 at any used book store. Clausewitz “On War” I am sure that some may disagree but IMHO opinion it will help shed the scales on your eyes. I am also sure that others here will have some more recommendations. **Capt** ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conspiracy-theorist/639012/605 "2013-02-21T00:59:10Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > I am sure that some may disagree but IMHO opinion it will help shed the scales on your eyes. It’s not **Koz** who has [scales](http://dungheap.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/lizard.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conspiracy-theorist/639012/606 "2013-02-21T01:07:06Z")
OH NO LiZARD PEOPLE! \*\*Koz \*\*is right cr\*p **Capt** ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conspiracy-theorist/639012/607 "2013-02-21T01:26:03Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > what was the point of your insane person/insane king question a few posts ago? I’m totally puzzled by what you were driving at. That sometimes _saying_ something insane does not _make_ it insane. “I’m king of England!” 😃 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conspiracy-theorist/639012/608 "2013-02-21T01:28:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “the Mafia and Papacy indicate the Illuminati exists because the Mafia and Papacy exist”- which doesn’t make any sense. “the Mafia and Papacy indicate the Illuminati exists because the Mafia and Papacy exist” - you’re right, that doesn’t make sense. However, the heads of government indicate the Illuminati exists because the head of government summit as I described it could exist, and **drewtwo99** understood this point even if she does not necessarily believe it. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Is the only point you’re arguing that “there is a non-zero chance that the Illuminati exists”? No. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conspiracy-theorist/639012/609 "2013-02-21T01:54:54Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > “the Mafia and Papacy indicate the Illuminati exists because the Mafia and Papacy exist” - you’re right, that doesn’t make sense. However, the heads of government indicate the Illuminati exists because the head of government summit as I described it could exist, and **drewtwo99** understood this point even if she does not necessarily believe it. I still don’t get it. Yes, that government summit could exist, but how does the possibility of such a summit imply the existence of the Illuminati? Maybe they get together and don’t decide anything because they can’t agree on anything. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conspiracy-theorist/639012/610 "2013-02-21T02:39:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I still don’t get it. Yes, that government summit could exist, but how does the possibility of such a summit imply the existence of the Illuminati? Maybe they get together and don’t decide anything because they can’t agree on anything. And the merry-go-round begins yet another revolution. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conspiracy-theorist/639012/611 "2013-02-21T18:52:16Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > So you understand that there can be (1) organizations in which the members, structure and methods are all well documented and easily found and that there can be (2) organizations in which the members, structures and methods are unknown. > > (1) indicates (2). 1. So are the Girl Scouts. Does the existence of the Girls Scout indicate that the Illuminati exist? 2. No one is refuting that throughout history small groups of people have attempted and sometimes succeeded in conspiring to work against the interests of others for their own gain. But to go from that to thinking that it proves that there is a centuries long worldwide conspiracy controlling everything without leaving any evidence is madness. [/QUOTE] No, I came up with my world view through some need to find chaos in order. [/QUOTE] Your attempts at pithy comments fall flat. Try for coherent instead. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conspiracy-theorist/639012/612 "2013-02-21T19:13:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I still don’t get it. Yes, that government summit could exist, but how does the possibility of such a summit imply the existence of the Illuminati? Maybe they get together and don’t decide anything because they can’t agree on anything. It’s simple. Countries are run by someone. That person has supreme power within that country (ignore the fact that there are actually dozens of types of governments and it very rare for anyone to have supreme power within the country). Since there are 192 (drink!) ( ignore the fact that the number is not exact due to the reality of geopolitics) supreme rulers they are all equal to each other (ignore the fact that in no way is the Prime Minister of Grenada equal to Putin), if they all get together it will be a G-192 summit (ignore the fact that it never happened, can’t happen secretly and it wouldn’t matter if it did. And don’t we have the UN anyway?) Since there can’t be 192 people with equal power someone has to be in charge of that meeting (ignore the giant leap of logic). Therefore there has to be the illuminati. And since there has to be someone in charge of the illuminati, it proves the existence of Lizard People. Using that logic I figure someone needs be above the Lizards. I’m betting its the [Greys.](http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_alien) ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conspiracy-theorist/639012/613 "2013-02-21T19:30:17Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > If they’d thought about it that much and maximum damage was the aim, they’d have chosen later flights when the buildings were more well populated. If you are gonna go to the effort, why wouldn’t you maximise damage? There was a short time window before a shoot down order would be issued. The takeoff time of flights later in the day is not reliable ( due to many more opportunities for delays which stack up as the day goes on) , so the terrorists took early flights to insure the attacks happened in the shortest time window they could manage. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conspiracy-theorist/639012/614 "2013-02-21T20:37:15Z")
> [@Kevbo](#): > > There was a short time window before a shoot down order would be issued. The takeoff time of flights later in the day is not reliable ( due to many more opportunities for delays which stack up as the day goes on) , so the terrorists took early flights to insure the attacks happened in the shortest time window they could manage. There was also a report of a group of men with Middle Eastern appearances behaving oddly on one of those flights a few weeks prior. The witness surmised that they were taking notes on which landmarks were visible along the route. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conspiracy-theorist/639012/615 "2013-02-22T17:42:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes, that government summit could exist Thank you for conceding that point. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > how does the possibility of such a summit imply the existence of the Illuminati? **Loach** answered this question: > [@Loach](#): > > It’s simple. Countries are run by someone. That person has supreme power within that country (ignore the fact that there are actually dozens of types of governments and it very rare for anyone to have supreme power within the country). Since there are 192 (drink!) ( ignore the fact that the number is not exact due to the reality of geopolitics) supreme rulers they are all equal to each other (ignore the fact that in no way is the Prime Minister of Grenada equal to Putin), if they all get together it will be a G-192 summit (ignore the fact that it never happened, can’t happen secretly and it wouldn’t matter if it did. And don’t we have the UN anyway?) Since there can’t be 192 people with equal power someone has to be in charge of that meeting (ignore the giant leap of logic). Therefore there has to be the illuminati. **drewtwo99** also wrote something similar, except she did not write, “Since there can’t be 192 people with equal power someone has to be in charge of that meeting”, a very important point. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Maybe they get together and don’t decide anything because they can’t agree on anything. Then at least they [know](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_knowledge_(logic)) they can’t agree on anything. > [@Loach](#): > > Does the existence of the Girls Scout indicate that the Illuminati exist? No. > [@Loach](#): > > No one is refuting that throughout history small groups of people have attempted and sometimes succeeded in conspiring to work against the interests of others for their own gain. But to go from that to thinking that it proves that there is a centuries long worldwide conspiracy controlling everything without leaving any evidence is madness. Why is it “madness”? > [@Loach](#): > > Your attempts at pithy comments fall flat. Try for coherent instead. Do you mean, try for coherency instead? You aren’t very coherent, **Loach**. You set a different standard for me since you yourself gave a pithy comment, “some need to find order in chaos” and I turned that comment around - “some need to find chaos in order”. Do you understand the difference between a need to find order in chaos and a need to find chaos in order? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conspiracy-theorist/639012/616 "2013-02-22T18:25:35Z")
I find the explanation Loach posted just as loony as Loach does does- most world leaders have pretty strong limits on their power, the 192 world leaders are obviously not all “equal”, and even if they were equal, it could just be a meeting of equals without anyone higher. Meetings can happen without someone in charge, and they do every day. So no, I don’t think it follows logically that the Illuminati must exist. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conspiracy-theorist/639012/617 "2013-02-22T19:25:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > the 192 world leaders are obviously not all “equal” The 192 world leaders _are_ obviously equal - equal by virtue of being at the same level, by virtue of being world leaders - despite the fact, as **Loach** points out, that they do not have “equal power”. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So no, I don’t think it follows logically that the Illuminati must exist. I think it follows logically that the Illuminati _could_ exist. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conspiracy-theorist/639012/618 "2013-02-22T19:41:40Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > The 192 world leaders _are_ obviously equal - equal by virtue of being at the same level, by virtue of being world leaders - despite the fact, as **Loach** points out, that they do not have “equal power”. I disagree, but ok. > [@](#): > > I think it follows logically that the Illuminati _could_ exist. In the same sense that it follows logically that Nixon _could_ have been a lizard creature from space. But I don’t think there’s any more reason to believe in the Illuminati then to believe in Nixon the lizard creature. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conspiracy-theorist/639012/619 "2013-02-22T19:53:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I disagree, but ok. Why do you disagree? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In the same sense that it follows logically that Nixon could have been a lizard creature from space. But I don’t think there’s any more reason to believe in the Illuminati then to believe in Nixon the lizard creature. I’m going to change your argument so that you may understand how narrow it is: In the same sense that it follows logically that Nixon could have been a human being from California. But I don’t think there’s any more reason to believe in the Illuminati then to believe in Nixon the human being. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conspiracy-theorist/639012/620 "2013-02-22T20:54:58Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Why do you disagree? Because I don’t think every world leader is “equal” in status, whatever “status” is among world leaders. Why would they be? Not every CEO is equal in status, nor is every baseball GM, etc. > [@](#): > > I’m going to change your argument so that you may understand how narrow it is: > > In the same sense that it follows logically that Nixon could have been a human being from California. But I don’t think there’s any more reason to believe in the Illuminati then to believe in Nixon the human being. No, because there’s overwhelming evidence that Nixon is (was) a human being from California, and no evidence that’s he’s a lizard creature. There’s no evidence for the existence of the Illuminati- even if there is a logical possibility of their existence, there’s no evidence for them, and therefore no more reason to believe they exist that to believe that Nixon is lizard creature. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conspiracy-theorist/639012.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-conspiracy-theorist/639012.md?page=32)