# Ask the Copy Editor! **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 27, 2002, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-copy-editor/125784 "2002-08-27T15:54:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2002, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-copy-editor/125784/41 "2002-08-28T23:39:37Z")
Me three. “People” doesn’t use it and I’ve done many a double-take while perusing their prose. ---
**Author:** ![DeepPurple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@DeepPurple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeepPurple)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-copy-editor/125784/42 "2002-08-29T04:27:41Z")
ok, I give up, what is the possessive of ‘it’? I have a question, what happened to “pled”? There have been a few court cases reported in the media where the reporter says, “Bort Evildoer pleads guilty.” It makes me think Bort is pleading e’en now. Shouldn’t it be pled? What I love about SDMB, among other things, I never have to say; correct me if I’m wrong. (Or should that be a colon?) ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-copy-editor/125784/43 "2002-08-29T06:14:54Z")
The possessive of “it” is “its.” No apostrophe. And here’s another copyeditor in strong favor of the serial comma. Honestly, you’d think stylebooks could agree on _rule one, page one_ from Strunk & White. (Yes, I’m a former and sometimes current copyeditor. But I sometimes post after a few beers, which excuses any and all typos I may occasionally include in my posts.) ---
**Author:** ![Karellen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/779978/32.png) [@Karellen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karellen)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-copy-editor/125784/44 "2002-08-29T07:31:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogzilla \* > \*\* > > I’m pretty sure the package designers over there at freakin’ Purina (or whoever makes Whisker Lickins) probably speaks English as a native language. > > \*\* Incidentally, Whiskas and its associated products are trademarks of M&M/Mars, the candy makers (who also make Pedigree dog food). Purina makes Cat Chow, and was recently acquired by Swiss megalith Nestle (which alreadymakes ALPO and Friskies), creating the world’s largest pet food company. And I write copy for their advertising in South East Asia, and lemme tell you the standards of English here are comical. But at least we have an excuse…😃 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-copy-editor/125784/45 "2002-08-29T07:58:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\* > > In proper English, “got” is a nonstandard word. As you’ve noted, it’s better to substitute “have” as the case warrants. Of course, if you’re playing baseball and there’s a pop fly and you yell out “I got it,” no one’s gonna care about your grammar. > > Instead of “What have you got there?” one should say “What do you have there?”; that is, change “have got” to “do have.” \*\* Are you absolutely sure about that? As far as I’ve always been taught “have got” is a proper construction. It’s “got” by itself that can cause problems. As in “I got to go.” In fact, I’ve got a grammar book in front of me saying that “have got” is okay, but it is British English so I may be mixing the two flavors of English up. It’s been years since I did any copy-editing. In fact, you’ll notice that Brits tend to start questions “Have you got” while Americans say “Do you have”? The usage note at [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) states: > [@](#): > > ·In colloquial use and in numerous nonstandard varieties of American English, the past tense form got has the meaning of the present. This arose probably by dropping the helping verb have from the past perfects have got, has got: We’ve got to go, we’ve got a lot of problems became We got to go, we got a lot of problems. This seems to indicate to me that have+got is a valid construction. (Though isn’t it the present perfect, not the past perfect as this quote states.) Also, as the past tense, I believe “got” is acceptable as well. There’s no usage note against it that I’ve seen. Every day, John gets the groceries. Yesterday, John got the groceries. The day before, John had also got(ten) the groceries. N’est-ce pas? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-copy-editor/125784/46 "2002-08-29T08:16:42Z")
There’s further discussion of the issue at: [http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jlawler/aue/gotten.html](http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jlawler/aue/gotten.html) This deals more with the got/gotten aspect of the debate, but suffice to say, I’m willing to say with a 100% certainty that “have got” is a valid construction in English, and with 99% certainty that it’s valid in American English as well. “Have got” is rendered as “have” in most American cases, but I have seen it’s use. “Have you got a pen?” is as grammatical and acceptable as “Do you have a pen?” ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-copy-editor/125784/47 "2002-08-29T10:55:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pulykamell \* > \*\* > > Are you absolutely sure about that? As far as I’ve always been taught “have got” is a proper construction. It’s “got” by itself that can cause problems. As in “I got to go.” In fact, I’ve got a grammar book in front of me saying that “have got” is okay, but it is British English so I may be mixing the two flavors of English up. It’s been years since I did any copy-editing. In fact, you’ll notice that Brits tend to start questions “Have you got” while Americans say “Do you have”?\*\* Stupid Brits. 😉 I still think it’s nonstandard. It may be technically correct, although I hope it dies out. “John got the paper” would be much expressed much nicer as “John picked up the paper” or “John bought the paper.” It’s just such a powerless word, “got.” I guess it’s more of a pet peeve than an actual rule. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-copy-editor/125784/48 "2002-08-29T11:10:06Z")
Actually, I did a lot when I worked for a paper, and still do on a smaller scale. Anecdote: I proofed a book once - thus I was only required to look for punctuation, grammatical, and spelling errors, which I did. Unfortunately, one of the chapters began “The problem with this house was the architect”, when it should have read “The problem with this house was the attic”. I wasn’t to know. However, the architect in question sued, and they had to pulp 15,000 copies. The author blamed me. I declined to submit my invoice because I didn’t have the money to defend myself, though I don’t doubt I would have been successful. Never got a sou. Bastards. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-copy-editor/125784/49 "2002-08-29T12:03:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\* > > Stupid Brits. 😉 > > I still think it’s nonstandard. It may be technically correct, although I hope it dies out. “John got the paper” would be much expressed much nicer as “John picked up the paper” or “John bought the paper.” It’s just such a powerless word, “got.” I guess it’s more of a pet peeve than an actual rule. \*\* I don’t know. I like the casual elegance of “Have you got any beer?” I’ve looked through several American dictionaries now, and I cannot find any proscription or note against using “got” as the past tense or past participle of “to get.” When they taught us grammar in, well, grammar school, I do remember the teachers getting into little hissy fits over the word “got.” As a simple present tense form, it is indeed non-standard for formal writing. “I got to go.” “I got a beer,” in the sense of “I have a beer,” not “I received a beer.” All these cases would present no argument from me. In formal writing, these are incorrect (although many people do talk this way.) Now, in your example, you say you prefer “John picked up the paper” or “John brought the paper” to “John got the paper.” All three sentences have different meanings. “John got the paper” means “John obtained the paper.” This sounds a bit stilted. You could try “John was given the paper,” but that suggests an agent (which the original doesn’t) and is passive (not a fault in and of itself.) But, you are right, generally “got” is a bit of a lifeless word, but when describing the past tense of “get” what is there to use? Aha…in my Webster’s New World Dictionary, we have some support for one part of your objection. Webster’s lists “Has got” in the sense of possession, as in “he’s got red hair” as colloquial. However, for the past and present participle, I don’t think there is any credible objection from any American English grammar authority. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-copy-editor/125784/50 "2002-08-29T12:16:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pulykamell \* > \*\* > Now, in your example, you say you prefer “John picked up the paper” or “John brought the paper” to “John got the paper.” All three sentences have different meanings. “John got the paper” means “John obtained the paper.” This sounds a bit stilted. You could try “John was given the paper,” but that suggests an agent (which the original doesn’t) and is passive (not a fault in and of itself.) \*\* Sure, they all have different meanings, but that’s what makes them all better than “got” itself. “Got” - to me - is one of those words that is a little too generic, like “thing.” Let’s say John went outside to get the paper. He could have “retrieved” the paper. I just think that most of the time, there’s going to be a better word than simply “got.” And whereas it’s nonstandard in formal writing, it’s nonstandard in neither casual speech nor casual writing. A lot of it depends on context and the audience, anyway. What’s the reading level? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-copy-editor/125784/51 "2002-08-29T12:56:42Z")
Well, with newspapers, it’s like 4th grade, isn’t it? 🙂 Anyhow, if you hate “got,” then I suppose you must hate “get” and “will get” just as much, since we are talking about the same verb. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-copy-editor/125784/52 "2002-08-29T13:18:37Z")
Not really; it’s just the past participle “got” that gets me. Heh. Get it? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-copy-editor/125784/53 "2002-08-29T13:23:51Z")
Got it. (That passes, right?) Speaking of “dead words,” I must say, one that always gets on my tits is “impact” as a verb. As in, “The interest rate fluctuations impacted the nation’s economy.” I don’t know why, but I hate “impact” as a verb. Probably because it doesn’t tell me anything useful. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-copy-editor/125784/54 "2002-08-29T13:28:49Z")
Yeah, it’s the newspeak used by corporations. I have a Dilbert strip on my monitor right now in which the Pointy-Haired Boss says, “Ann, I’m going to task you with a deliverable.” Oh, and I completely forgot about **DeepPurple**. There was a shift a while back from “pled” to “pleaded,” as well as from “dove” to “dived” and a few others I can’t recall at the moment. Not sure why. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-copy-editor/125784/55 "2002-08-29T13:45:52Z")
Who knew “got” would get such a reaction? Not I. The one that drives me nuts as a sissified usage (more than an imprecise one, which seems to be your beef with “got”), is “as” when the writer means “since.” For instance, “I decided to buy a new grammar handbook as I was going to be ordering a bunch of stuff from Amazon anyway.” No reason: Just fingernails on a blackboard. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-copy-editor/125784/56 "2002-08-29T14:10:52Z")
Here’s one that tied up me, my copy editor, my client’s copy editor and every style book the three of us could consult. How do you punctuate a bulleted list which is grammatically a sentence, in typeset (not manuscript) copy. Here’s the example The list of demands included - a pay raise - improved health care - hi, opal - more on-the-job training Do we use a colon after “included”? Does each individual line take an initial capital letter, or is it assumed to continue the sentence? Does each line end with a comma? Semicolon? Period? Nothing? Do we put “and” before the final line? Or do the bullets replace all that kind of punctuation? ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-copy-editor/125784/57 "2002-08-29T14:20:23Z")
Before any kind of list, whether it’s bulleted or simply part of a sentence, you should have a colon (but not if it’s simply a recitation of items, such as when one would use a serial comma). (A rule of thumb is that if the words “the following” are implied, a colon is used.) As far as the list itself goes, however, it depends on the length of each line. Your example list is fairly short, so I wouldn’t punctuate: The list of demands included: - a pay raise - improved health care - hi, opal - more on-the-job training Longer lines would look silly with no punctuation. Assume for a moment that each of the above lines is twice as long. I’d end each line with a comma, and at the end of the third line I would put “, and”; at the end of the final line, I’d put a period (unless there was more to the sentence, which would appear on the next line). ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-copy-editor/125784/58 "2002-08-29T14:40:19Z")
It’s apparently in Chicago Style Manual, section 5.75 [at least according to this.](http://www.stcpmc.org/archive/n&v/gram0196.html) My head is spinning from trying to decipher all the ins and outs of the style. I like **dan’s** style, but it seems Chicago would do it slightly differently. I think they would capitalize each word. I wouldn’t. I don’t know. You figure it out… ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-copy-editor/125784/59 "2002-08-29T14:53:31Z")
I don’t think you’d capitalize unless each line was a complete thought. This is really a style issue, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-copy-editor/125784/60 "2002-08-29T16:10:22Z")
So, since the OP is “Ask the Copy Editor,” do you guys get into, like, style-wars and stuff? Like, “Man, dig the new guy, he mixes it Chicago style. What a pussy! Chicago-style is so old skool. All da homeys know MLA is da bomb!” Or do you guys get, all like, “Check it out, dawg, I mean, APA gets respeck and all, and props to Strunk & White, they really shook up the scene and all, but I’m innovator, ya know what I’m sayin? I do it my way. I mix-up copy _freestyle_. I take all dem whack mofo style books, APA, MLA, AP, UPI, Chicago, S&W and a little bit of what I picked up on the streets of Detroit, give ‘em a shake and then we’s got some smokin’ copy that the kids can jump to. Aww yeahhh…” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-copy-editor/125784.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-copy-editor/125784.md?page=4)