# Ask the "crazy" settler **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 15, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-crazy-settler/553889 "2010-09-15T21:10:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-crazy-settler/553889/181 "2010-09-26T10:29:41Z")
For those of you who are asking about the military force thing: if you look at the history of the area where I live, it’s been the focus of how many wars over hundreds, of not thousands of years? In all that time, has any one country given back the land, after it’s been conquered, to the country that had it previously? Romans, Ottomans, Greeks, Arabs - have any of them said, “My bad! Here, take your land back? Sorry we took it from you?” If anything, maybe Israel should cede the place back to Jordan, and let them deal with the problem. We saw how fast Jordan gave the Palestinians a homeland from 1948 to 1967, right? ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-crazy-settler/553889/182 "2010-09-26T10:33:42Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > Folks, it’s [sukkot](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukkot), which may or may not limit the OP’s online time. If you want to argue amongst yourselves on any of these issues, please start a new thread, probably in GD. Otherwise, please wait patiently for the OP’s return. > > **twickster** , MPSIMS moderator Thanks for pointing this out. Between Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur, and Sukkot, it’s been a very busy time. I am trying to keep up! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-crazy-settler/553889/183 "2010-09-26T12:38:33Z")
[quote=“Capitaine\_Zombie, post:179, topic:553889”] > [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](#): > > I thought the whole point about “returning to Israel”, in Judaism, is that it would happen when the Messiah returns (hence why so few Jews, through he centuries, did “go back” to Jerusalem, even after recurring pogroms. I say “go back’” with commas, because if somebody can point to me the supposed moment in time where Jews were expelled from Israel, or Palestine, I’d be curious to know-This is an open question, not reserved to the OP). > But I’d be glad too to have the OP explain to me why aliyah is now considered necessary or an important part of Judaism when it was the exact contrary for centuries. While the official date for the Exile is the destruction of the Second Temple, it isn’t really that simple - Jews had already spread out throughout the Levant and further even before that date, with many simply not returning from the Babylonian Exile several centuries before; OTOH, a very large Jewish presence remained in Judea even after the Great Revolt until the land was nearly completely depopulated as a result of the Bar Cochva Revolt in 136 AD. The latter date could be considered the true beginning of the Diaspora, because while it had existed before that, from that point onward it lacked a recognized “center”. Anyway, Jewish thought did indeed largely forbid return to Israel until the Messiah’s return. That’s why the original Zionists were almost all secular Jews, and faced significant opposition from Orthodox circles. While a small religious Zionist movement had been established in the early 20th Century (the Mizrachi movement, headed by Rabbi Kook), it never received any real prominence until the destruction of European Orthodox Judaism in the Holocaust. Even after that, religion and Zionism made an uneasy match until the 1967 war, which many Orthodox Jews - particularly Americans - saw as a sign from God that they were now welcome, nay, commanded to resettle the land. This led to a major shift in the coming decades, until Religious Zionism became the dominant school of thought among non-Haredi Orthodox Jews. In other words, the religion changed. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-crazy-settler/553889/184 "2010-09-26T13:39:44Z")
Restating my question from post #129: If the land you currently occupy is given over to the Palestinians(a distinct possibility), will you move out of the area, or will you stay? ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-crazy-settler/553889/185 "2010-09-26T15:31:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Restating my question from post #129: If the land you currently occupy is given over to the Palestinians(a distinct possibility), will you move out of the area, or will you stay? We would leave. It’s not so pashut (obvious) that where we are would be handed over; many of the articles and maps I’ve seen show our area as staying under Israeli rule, with equivalent land being exchanged in other places. But we would not stay, and I don’t know anyone who would. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-crazy-settler/553889/186 "2010-09-26T15:50:01Z")
That’s good to hear. (Incidentally “pashut” means “simple”; I think the word you were going for is “barur”). ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-crazy-settler/553889/187 "2010-09-26T15:52:27Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Anyway, Jewish thought did indeed largely forbid return to Israel until the Messiah’s return. Returning to Israel was never halachically forbidden, despite what Satmar chasidim and Neturei Karta say. > [@](#): > > In other words, the religion changed. The religion did not change; there was a change in emphasis towards aliyah and living in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-crazy-settler/553889/188 "2010-09-26T15:55:58Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s good to hear. > > (Incidentally “pashut” means “simple”; I think the word you were going for is “barur”). I was actually thinking of **pashut** in the “yeshivish” learning sense, as someone will say “that’s not so pashut.” But thanks for the correction. Something I’ve learned here is to always appreciate when natives correct my Hebrew, as they mean well and it helps me learn. ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-crazy-settler/553889/189 "2010-09-26T16:06:22Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > But I’d be glad too to have the OP explain to me why alyah is now considered necessary or an important part of Judaism when it was the exact contrary for centuries. It was never contrary to make aliyah over the centuries. The problem was that it was close to impossible for many people. Think about it - it was a dangerous trip that could have taken months or years. The yearning has always been in the prayers, and people have always wanted to come, but circumstances being what they were over the centuries made the trip close to impossible. It’s much simpler these days. Some planning, get an aliyah visa, sell the house, hop on a plane at JFK, and 11 hours later you’re walking on the tarmac at Ben Gurion airport. The trip is easier and much less dangerous. Not all orthodox Jews consider aliyah necessary or an important part of their Judaism. I’ve often heard people say that they won’t make aliyah until the Moshiach (Messiah) comes. Aliyah is something that either burns inside you or not. ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-crazy-settler/553889/190 "2010-09-26T16:16:01Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Then why are you maintaining dual citizenship? Does that feel hypocritical at all? We keep dual citizenship for two reasons: [ol] [li]we can vote in U.S. elections, and[/li][li]we can enter the U.S. on our American passports, so we don’t have to worry about obtaining a visa[/li][/ol] If it came down to it, and for some reason we were forced to give up one or other of the citizenships, we would give up the U.S. I still file American taxes. I don’t find it hypocritical. It’s legal; if it wasn’t, I wouldn’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-crazy-settler/553889/191 "2010-09-26T18:14:58Z")
> [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > Restating my question from post #129: If the land you currently occupy is given over to the Palestinians(a distinct possibility), will you move out of the area, or will you stay? > > We would leave. It’s not so pashut (obvious) that where we are would be handed over; many of the articles and maps I’ve seen show our area as staying under Israeli rule, with equivalent land being exchanged in other places. But we would not stay, and I don’t know anyone who would. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-crazy-settler/553889/192 "2010-09-26T19:14:04Z")
> [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](#): > > > [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > > > But I’d be glad too to have the OP explain to me why alyah is now considered necessary or an important part of Judaism when it was the exact contrary for centuries. > > It was never contrary to make aliyah over the centuries. The problem was that it was close to impossible for many people. Think about it - it was a dangerous trip that could have taken months or years. The yearning has always been in the prayers, and people have always wanted to come, but circumstances being what they were over the centuries made the trip close to impossible. > > It’s much simpler these days. Some planning, get an aliyah visa, sell the house, hop on a plane at JFK, and 11 hours later you’re walking on the tarmac at Ben Gurion airport. The trip is easier and much less dangerous. > > Not all orthodox Jews consider aliyah necessary or an important part of their Judaism. I’ve often heard people say that they won’t make aliyah until the Moshiach (Messiah) comes. Aliyah is something that either burns inside you or not. Ok thanks for answering my question but what I underlined (at least) is pure bull. Jews all throughout the Middle Ages were regularly expelled from the countries they lived in (to be allowed back in centuries later, to then be reexpelled , and so on). As a result each time the Jews resettled in other countries. There were always some going for Jerusalem. But always in very little numbers. More than once did they relocate in lands as far or further than Jerusalem. Clearly it wasnt distance (it never is for any city on the Mediterranean, anyway, those would be the most accessible places to go to). Hence the great number of Jewish comunities around the Meditteranean. As I said I thought that it was more or less forbidden (or rather say, not particularily welcome) to settle in Jerusalem. “We moved here because this is what God commanded us to do in the Torah”, if that was, why then, for centuries, a great number of occasions to do so propped up, and almost no one emigrated there? If you only got “distance” as an answer, it seems you didnt have the curiosity to at least check why. I find it strange, as this seems to be a subject that you greatly care about. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-crazy-settler/553889/193 "2010-09-27T02:14:35Z")
> [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](#): > > It’s like suburbia everywhere else. Houses, apartments, shopping center, gym/pool, softball field, basketball/hockey court. Plenty of electricity and running water. The nearest city is about 25 km away. We have public transportation. Most people work in the Tel Aviv area, but there are some who work in the Jerusalem area. > > We live here because it’s relatively small, and fairly inexpensive to afford (although the housing prices have gone up). The schools are very good here as well. It’s quiet. These are all things we looked for. > > There’s no “settler lifestyle.” We live a suburban life pretty much like anyone else. Which is probably the biggest indictment I can think of, of what you and other Israeli settlers in the West Bank are doing. Since there are lots of places to live somewhere that’s “like suburbia everywhere else”, and only one of them involves tearing up someone else’s homeland into progressively tinier bits…well, you get the idea. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-crazy-settler/553889/194 "2010-09-27T02:19:47Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Which is probably the biggest indictment I can think of, of what you and other Israeli settlers in the West Bank are doing. Since there are lots of places to live somewhere that’s “like suburbia everywhere else”, and only one of them involves tearing up someone else’s homeland into progressively tinier bits…well, you get the idea. They are making the desert bloom, and the Palestinians destroy greenhouses on land given to them to sell for scrap metal? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-crazy-settler/553889/195 "2010-09-29T09:48:23Z")
Jeeze…this thread has really disappeared into the wilderness…I want to hear more 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![chizzuk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e36b37/32.png) [@chizzuk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chizzuk)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-crazy-settler/553889/196 "2010-09-29T23:09:45Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Jeeze..this thread has really disappeared into the wilderness…I want to hear more 🙂 The thread was started between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, it’s been Sukkos for the last week, and Sheminei Atzeres/Simchas Torah just started at sundown in Israel. Oh, and then there’s Shabbos. OP is Orthodox and cannot use the computer on holidays, plus he’s probably been really busy. Maybe it’ll pick up later. ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-crazy-settler/553889/197 "2010-09-30T19:33:16Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Jeeze..this thread has really disappeared into the wilderness…I want to hear more 🙂 As **chizzuk** says, it’s a crazy time of year. I should have waited to start the thread until after the holidays were finished . . . which they are now. What else did you want to hear? ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-crazy-settler/553889/198 "2010-09-30T23:57:54Z")
I thread extremely distasteful. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-crazy-settler/553889/199 "2010-10-01T00:34:47Z")
> [@These are my own pants](#): > > I thread extremely distasteful. I beg your pardon? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-crazy-settler/553889/200 "2010-10-01T02:18:34Z")
He accidentally the whole bris. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-crazy-settler/553889.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-crazy-settler/553889.md?page=11)