# Ask the former Mormon missionary (and current atheist) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 5, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-former-mormon-missionary-and-current-atheist/484577 "2009-02-05T16:17:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-former-mormon-missionary-and-current-atheist/484577/221 "2009-02-13T15:25:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Apparently the Mormons don’t agree - they reserve the right to change what they teach. Maybe they got what God said to them wrong, or conditions have changed such that God is now telling them something new or different. > > I am a parent, so I am familiar with the concept of different rules for people in different stages of life, or different levels of experience and maturity. > > It just seems a little harsh to condemn Mormons for teaching something you don’t agree with, and then condemning them again when they stop doing it. > > IANAM. > > Regards, > Shodan Well, it’s not quite as simple as different rules for people in different stages of life. God first says X happened some time in the unverifiable past. Everyone talks about how great X was. What a miracle! Scientific data shows X is impossible and never happened. Oh, did we say X? No, no, God meant Y. He always meant Y. We must have just been confused and said X when really we meant Y all along. Go Y! How great is God that He made Y happen! Yay! [Fifty years pass…] Go Z! I don’t know that we ever believed Y. We’ve always known that Z was the absolute truth. Z! Z! Z! ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-former-mormon-missionary-and-current-atheist/484577/222 "2009-02-13T16:31:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > **Maybe they got what God said to them wrong** , or conditions have changed such that God is now telling them something new or different. If this (my bolding) were correct, then any such church would lose all credibility. God talks, but they get it wrong. What then are they getting right? Or was it correct the first time and the new information is wrong? Let’s look at an example. Brigham Young said that God came down to the earth as Adam. That has been renounced by later prophets. If Brigham got that wrong, then what else did he get wrong? The best hitters don’t reach .400, but one would hope that a prophet had a better batting average, otherwise just save your time and flip a coin. Spencer W. Kimball, the prophet from my youth, gave a talk in the 70s, saying that women shouldn’t waste their time going to college, they should raise kids instead. Part of the secret temple ceremony was, up until ’95, that women had to obey their husbands. That has been changed, and the requirement for barefoot women in the kitchen is no longer officially taught. Of course conditions are different. Society has changed and the knee-jerk conservative reaction to suppressing women was no longer acceptable. The world changed, and finally the church noticed and made minimum efforts to conform. What’s interesting is that God is consistently, without fail, behind the social or scientific curve. Polygamy is suspended when the Church property was threatened to be taken away. Blacks were allowed full acceptance only when the tax exemption status was threatened. The fantastical tail of Indian origins surrendered to DNA testing. And all of these were taught, in their day, as eternal truths. God said this and God said that. What I don’t understand, and I wish someone could explain the nature of God to me, is the failure to anticipate the near future. If I could see ahead that in 5 years time society would force an issue, I’d make an early change, just so people could tell I was a god. Why wouldn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-former-mormon-missionary-and-current-atheist/484577/223 "2009-02-13T17:49:39Z")
OK, here’s a probably-trivial oddity I’m curious about: Is there a Mormon cultural tradition of dislike of salamanders? ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-former-mormon-missionary-and-current-atheist/484577/224 "2009-02-13T20:55:18Z")
Only since 1985 or so. I don’t know if you’re joking or not, but in case you’re not, salamanders only came on the scene in 1984 with [Mark Hofmann](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Hofmann#Murders)’s forgery of an early Mormon historical document. [QUOTE=wikipedia] Perhaps the most notorious of Hofmann’s LDS forgeries, the Salamander letter, appeared in 1984. Supposedly written by Martin Harris to William Wines Phelps, the letter presented a version of the recovery of the gold plates that contrasted markedly with the church-sanctioned version of events. Not only did the forgery make it clear that Joseph Smith had been practicing “money digging” through magical practices, but instead of an angel, “a white salamander” had appeared to Smith. After the letter had been purchased for the church and became public knowledge, Apostle Dallin Oaks asserted to Mormon educators that the words “white salamander” could be reconciled with Joseph Smith’s Angel Moroni because in the 1820s, the word salamander might also refer to a mythical being thought to be able to live in fire, and a “being that is able to live in fire is a good approximation of the description Joseph Smith gave of the Angel Moroni.” In 1984, Jerald and Sandra Tanner, noted critics of the LDS church, became the first to declare the letter a forgery despite the fact that it, as well as other Hofmann’s discoveries, would have strengthened the Tanners’ arguments against the veracity of official Mormon history. [/QUOTE] The most telling part about the whole tragedy is that the Tanners, notorious anti-Mormons, were the ones saying it was a fake (against their own interests), while all the supposed “prophets, seers, and revelators” were busy moving the goal posts and saying “salamanders really mean angels.” Since this incident, salamanders have become a kind of short-hand for Mormon credulity. For example, there is a website called the Salamander Society which highlights problems with Mormon beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-former-mormon-missionary-and-current-atheist/484577/225 "2009-02-13T22:21:46Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > Only since 1985 or so. > > I don’t know if you’re joking or not, but in case you’re not, salamanders only came on the scene in 1984 with [Mark Hofmann](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Hofmann#Murders)’s forgery of an early Mormon historical document. No, I wasn’t joking; it seemed that every so often I would catch some oblique reference to salamanders and Mormonism that left me puzzled. I suppose the most direct example I can think of offhand is Orson Scott Card’s note on his story “The Porcelain Salamander”, in which he states that he picked the title creature as an example of a “disgusting animal”. On the flip side, the actual creature in the story is quite charming, so I have no idea what this means anyway. Thanks for the info! ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-former-mormon-missionary-and-current-atheist/484577/226 "2009-02-14T04:23:21Z")
> [@The\_Mighty\_Richard](#): > > I think you are also overplaying the Card angle. Shouldn’t this be the “Card card?” /runs away ---
**Author:** ![JustThinkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@JustThinkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustThinkin)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-former-mormon-missionary-and-current-atheist/484577/227 "2009-02-14T14:07:54Z")
I remember hearing about salamanders when I was young (well before 1984). I don’t remember much about it. Vaguely remembered, there were always rumors that Joseph Smith had some really far out occult ideas including something about magic salamanders (as opposed to real salamanders found in nature). It wasn’t treated by Mormons as anything to loath, then; it was just as another anti-Mormon screed that we could shrug off. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-former-mormon-missionary-and-current-atheist/484577/228 "2009-02-14T17:23:39Z")
Per wikipedia: > [@](#): > > Hofmann’s use of a salamander drew upon legends about certain animals having supernatural powers. Hofmann may have been inspired by an early anti-Mormon work Mormonism Unvailed (sic) (1834), which claimed that a toad-like animal was rumored to have appeared to Smith in conjunction with the recovery of the plates. So there you have it, a toad-like animal. For the record, despite _Mormonism Unvailed_’s early date, I’m not aware of any reliable sources that back the toad story. Part of Mark Hoffman’s genius was that he knew exactly where Mormonism was vulnerable, and crafted forgeries that plausibly fit in those vulnerabilities. What is clear is that Joseph Smith was a very shady character prior to founding Mormonism, claiming he could see buried treasure with his seer stone and taking money in exchange for locating these treasures. He was convicted of fraud due to these activities in 1826. Of course, that’s saying nothing of his shady post-church founding activities, including marrying his associates’ wives, marrying a 14-year-old, and the Kirtland Safety Society. There’s so much to choose from! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-former-mormon-missionary-and-current-atheist/484577/229 "2009-02-15T10:00:49Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I suppose you made a promise to “god” not to divulge those things related to the temple, yet you seem willing to go back on your word. I sense more of a matter of hurt feelings in your posts than any enlightenment you may have received related to your new found beliefs. > Whether or not you believe any longer in a supreme being, a true gentleman wouldn’t break a promise after he has given his word as you certainly did. Now, unring this bell. Wow. That is truly nasty. You truly think that promises elicited from a child who has been propagandized his whole life should be binding? I sense much darkness you you. ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-former-mormon-missionary-and-current-atheist/484577/230 "2009-09-29T08:19:20Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > However, it probably wouldn’t be that big of deal to be a blackjack dealer, as long as you didn’t gamble yourself. (I can’t answer for certain, never having lived in Las Vegas.) As a native Las Vegan, I can say this: I think it has something to do with the large Mormon population in Las Vegas and the fact that 8 out of 10 Las Vegas jobs are, naturally, in the gaming industry (and the others being low-paying service industry jobs with terrible hours, not something particularly appealing to a pious religious guy with a large family). Question: Why do Mormon familes always have a huge stock of surplus food and water at the ready? Again, as a Las Vegan I had MANY Mormon friends and their houses were always full of food and drink, but there were rules about what we could eat and drink and what we couldn’t. One friend’s family had huge stockpiles of bottled water that we couldn’t ever drink…even in the parching Vegas summer heat. It was so strange, that secret stash, but I didn’t want to offend my friends by asking what the hell it was. That all said, I find Mormons to be particularly polite and friendly. I visited the LDS Church’s evening service once before my friend left on a mission to Honduras (he gave a speech) and everyone was very welcoming, though I made my views on religion known to everyone within earshot. Afterwards they let us all stay past closing to play b-ball on their indoor court! ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-former-mormon-missionary-and-current-atheist/484577/231 "2009-09-29T18:01:40Z")
Assuming that this thread doesn’t qualify as a zombie, I’d like to know how a missionary would respond to the following question: If a Jewish tribe migrated to central America, why didn’t they take [wheels](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/223/why-did-the-peoples-of-the-new-world-fail-to-invent-the-wheel) with them? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-former-mormon-missionary-and-current-atheist/484577/232 "2009-09-29T18:07:46Z")
[moderating] Let’s not resurrect this old zombie thread–we don’t know if the OP is still following it. Go ahead and ask questions in a new thread, please, and see where things go from there. [/moderating] > [@kidneyfailure](#): > > Why do Mormon familes always have a huge stock of surplus food and water at the ready? Preparing for the zombie thread apocalypse? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-former-mormon-missionary-and-current-atheist/484577.md?page=11)