I actually grew up in Park City, just outside SLC. When I moved out of the house I moved to SLC. Because of the large influx of out of staters living there I felt somewhat insulated compared to the other small towns in the area(which I’d been to a lot, and you’re right, it’s like going back in time). I did also live in Provo for a few years as well, and lemme tell ya THAT city was… interesting. Once I’d moved to Salt Lake I knew how bad it’d been, then seen even worse once I moved out of state completely.
I grew up in Kamas, which, in turn, is just outside of Park City. I’ve never lived in Provo, and I never would live in Provo. When I go down to visit my sister, it always makes my spine crawl, just to drive through the place. I think it’s a combination of the self-righteousness and the meth labs. It gives off a certain scent.
Does anybody know where the name Rulon comes from? It’s the name of a lot of Mormons (especially in the Fundamentalist movement but also in the actual church) and I’ve wondered. It was the name of the leader of the Apostolic Brethren (Rulon Allred) but seems to predate him by a good bit.
Is Orson Pratt still revered in the Mormon Church? I know that Brigham Young disliked him intensely but he was also one of the leading intellectuals of the early days, and I’ve been curious as to his legacy. (I know his brother Parley is; Mitt Romney is one of Parley’s decendants incidentally.)
What do Mormons think of the “Reformed” Church of LDS? My understanding is that this group broke away from the LDS church, at about the tme of the migration to Utah. Are they considered heretics?
Heretic might be too strong a word. There were many splinter groups in the LDS movement.
I’m not certain but I believe the RLDS were the first splinter group.
Most of the reactions I saw in Provo, the cultural capital of mormonism, was a smirking dismissal.
Missed the edit window, but Wikipedia has a very extensive article on the LDS movement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latter_Day_Saint_movement
The RLDS church is now called The Community of Christ.
There are quite a few denominations in what is broadly considered to be the Latter Day Saints movement. One of them is popularly known as the Bickertonites and is headquartered close to where I grew up in the Mon Valley in Pennsylvania.
I think it’s unfair to say that they broke away from the Mormon (LDS) church. What happened was that the Latter-day Saint movement was shattered into pieces by the aforementioned 1844 murder of the founder, Joseph Smith, Jr. He had made no plans for a successor (after all, he was only 38 years old), and he had two counselors and 12 apostles as potential successors, not to mention his son, Joseph Smith III. Joseph Smith’s first wife, Emma, and her son, Joseph Smith III, stayed in Missouri, and that branch became the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (RLDS), now know as the Community of Christ. Brigham Young lead a large group to Utah, and they became modern mainstream Mormons. However, they are only considered mainstream because they dwarf all other splinter groups. Objectively, there is nothing to say that Brigham Young was a more legitimate successor than Joseph Smith III or Sidney Rigdon. Success simply breeds the appearance of legitimacy.
And this success plays a large part in how modern mainstream Mormons view the RLDS. They don’t feel threatened at all by them, and simply view them as a curiosity and a bit of annoyance, since they own a bunch of historical Mormon sites in Missouri that the Utah church would love to have.
As, BMax noted, Wikipedia has a nice timeline at that link showing the various factions that arose after Joseph Smith’s murder. Just to get a sense of perspective of how large these splinter groups are, here are their membership totals, per Wikipedia:
[ol]
[li]Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS): 13 million[/li][li]Community of Christ (RLDS): 250,000[/li][li]Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite): 12,000[/li][li]Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (FLDS): 10,000[/li][li]Church of Christ (Temple Lot/Hendrickites): 6,000[/li][li]Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Strangite): <1,000[/li][/ol]
Most of these splinter groups accept the Book of Mormon, but don’t approve of Joseph Smith’s polygamy. The polygamists, or Fundamentalist Mormons, split off from the Utah mainstream Mormons after polygamy was gradually phased out after the 1890 and 1904 manifestos.
A few notes on the numbers. The 13 million is almost certainly inflated, since you have to go through a complicated process to remove your name from the records of the Mormon church. Once you are baptized, they consider you a member until you die. If they lose track of your address (say, because you don’t want to be part of the church anymore), they’ll keep you on the list until your 110th birthday, at which point they will safely assume you are dead. It all depends on what your definition of a member is.
The FLDS are listed as having 10,000 members, but there are tons of different polygamous groups in Utah, Arizona, and Canada. The total number of Mormon fundamentalist polygamists is estimated to be between 25,000-37,000 people.
more splinters still. The RLDS decided to ordain women into the priesthood in 1984 and that caused more groups to break off. When the church changed it’s name in 2000 some congregations refused to change. It’s just goofy really.
Oops. Good point, cosmodan. I can’t keep track of all the splinters! That brings up a good point, too, in that Mormons also view the RLDS as a cautionary example of the dangers of liberalization. The RLDS changed their name to be more mainstream Christian, ordained women, and stopped emphasizing the Book of Mormon, and they’ve splintered and not gained many members. Mormons are very tied to the myth that they are the “fastest growing religion” (even though that’s no longer true, if it ever was), and believe that worldwide success is just around the corner. Unfortunately for them, their growth is slowing down, and though the large size of Mormon families will keep them in positive numbers for years to come, the anticipated blossoming of Mormonism into a World Religion will never happen, not least because of the internet and growing secularism.
While I was growing up, Parley was mentioned many more times, but I still heard about Orson.
The early period after the Mormons settled Utah were heady days, and there was a lot things preached which the modern church would like to go away. Brigham Young taught that God came down and became Adam, for example, and Orson and other apostles had a number of interesting theories which don’t match the current doctrine.
None of this is any different then all the conflicting dogma debated in early Christianity, except that it happened after the printing press so the heretical teachings don’t disappear as easily, and it was only 100+ years ago instead of almost 2,000, which becomes ancient history.
Nobody minds curiosity. On the whole, Mormons like questions. Rudeness, however, seems uncalled for when discussing symbols of faith such as garments.
The LDS Church does not endorse political parties or candidates, and encourages members to vote and participate in civil/political discourse and so on according to their own consciences. (I’m not sure what you mean about something being outside an individual’s jurisdiction.) Most of the time it’s less political than many more vocal denominations–you’ll never see a political candidate using an LDS meetinghouse for a religious/political meeting.
The LDS Church does sometimes get involved in what it sees as moral issues. The leadership doesn’t get much involved in issues like abortion and doesn’t care about the evolution/ID debate, but it did decide to get involved in same-sex marriage, in that it explicitly asked members to get involved and donate time and money. The Church itself did in-kind donations. They simply don’t agree with it, though they are fine with civil unions–like many Christian churches, it’s the word marriage they can’t get on board with. Marriage is absolutely central to LDS doctrine, far more so than any other Christian denomination.
The LDS Church doesn’t spend a lot of time telling non-Mormons how to live the details of their lives. However, the leadership does feel that gay marriage is a societal issue and they want to have a voice in the debate, like many others.
So between us, and I promise it will go no further: how many wives does Donny Osmond really have? And David Archuleta- he’s digitally animated isn’t he? And do you think the Mormon Church will ever make an official recantation of/apology for Glenn Beck?
(Actually I guess I must be a terrible Mormon because I have no idea what this David guy looks like.)
Hey, come to think of it, this smilie looks like Donny Osmond. Look! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D It’s the Osmond brothers!
For Mormons and ex-Mormons alike:
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Is there a commonly accepted, even if unspoken, hierarchy of value judgments made toward various types of non-Mormons - for example “Baptists are decent if slightly misguided people, Catholics are superstitious fools but not beyond redemption, atheists are horrible horrible people you should stay away from”? Or is the world pretty much made up of Mormons and non-Mormons?
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I am wondering if you can comment on whether these two stories ring true; I’ve never known whether to believe them entirely:
STORY A: A gay friend of mine thought a couple of Mormon missionaries who came to his door were really delectable, though he knew he had no chance of a sexual encounter with them. But he happily invited them in to chat, and they returned repeatedly just to talk, giving him a chance to admire them. He believes they understood exactly what was going on, and participated in the charade of religious discussion anyway.
STORY B: A single female friend of mine frequently had business trips to SLC. She claims she was constantly accosted by believers who wanted her to convert, marry a Mormon, and procreate, all as soon as possible. To keep them from urging her to do so, she said she was infertile, and that always made them back off because they didn’t really care if an infertile woman became a Mormon.
For ex-Mormons only:
- Would it bother you if a practicing Mormon and decent human being became president, more than it would bother you if a follower of another faith you don’t practice became president?
For CC
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It was pretty much Mormon vs. Non-Mormon. I grew up with an informal teaching that Catholics were slightly worst, because they had corrupted the original church. Early church leaders were more critical of other Christian churches but the modern Church has backed off any public criticism.
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Story A
It’s extremely remotely possible that they were knowing it can only a charade to allow a gay to enjoy the view, but much, much more likely that they thought they really had a chance to convert him.
When I was on my mission, we met a guy who was increasingly more obvious about his personal interest in us, and we quietly dropped contact.
Story B
Nope. Even as a sometimes bitter ex-Mormon, I don’t buy that story at all. My beef is with the Church, I generally find the members to be generally decent people. Of course, she could run into a jerk or two, but I don’t see this as something everyone would do.
- Sure, but that’s only because of how insufferable the Mormons would become.
I think the posthumously baptized don’t get their own planets. Maybe they can work as angels for those that did? But that may be dependent on being trustworthy enough* not to do things like throw 500-km asteroids at inhabited worlds.*
The irony is particularly rich, since it’s only been a hundred years or so since Mormonism was on the wrong side of letting the majority decide the definition of marriage. Also fun to compare/contrast is the similarity of what recent Mormon leaders have to say about homosexuality (i.e. is evil, and leads to the downfall of societies), and what early Mormon leaders said about monogamy (i.e. is evil, and leads to the downfall of societies). Fun quotes here.
People who are sealed in the temple (being married in the temple, the next stage after being baptized, and is also tied up with the concept of polygamy) are eligible for the highest kingdoms, including their own planets.
Tough call. I suspect it’d depend on the candidate and where they stood on certain issues. Mostly, though, I’d be more worried that they’d be influenced by the church than I would be for most other candidates because most churches don’t have the strict hierarchy and reverence for their leaders that Mormons do.
Of course, it’s probably a moot point since most Mormons are conservative and I’ll likely never vote for a conservative.