I don’t know how common that is, but I’ve seen it before. Back in Texas, I had some good friends who lived in an apartment, and we became friendly with the people next door to them, three members of an extended family. One day, their cousin came to live with them. He was middle-aged and had been in prison in California for almost all of his adult life. He was paroled to Texas because of his relatives there. We’d often share a beer at night, and he was a genuinely nice guy to talk to. Completely open and honest about himself. He’d been given a decent job driving an airport limo; he was making good money from that, and he seemed really to be trying to make a go of it. One quirk that he had, though, was always reminiscing about how good life was in prison. You could see he truly missed the place. He’d tell how you could have anything you wanted there, even pornogrpahy and sex.
About that time, a series of armed robberies began in the area. Yep, you guessed it. During one robbery, the perp ended up shot through the neck but lived. Yes, it was my friends’ paroled neighbor. It seems going back to prison was a main motive for the robberies. They obliged him and sent him back.
I hope you do manage to stay out. Myself, I’ve always thought that what I would worry about the most if I went to prison was getting a shiv in my ribs for some minor infraction or other.
I respect you so much for overcoming your past. I know you don’t feel that you have, but I think so. And then you come in the SDMB to fight our ignorance. Major kudos and thanks to you.
I recently graduated from law school and passed the bar exam, and I’m currently a finalist for a job as a criminal defense lawyer (paid, not a public defender). You said: “I would have gotten off every crime I ever did if I had lawyers. I know it. Guilt or not.”
Could you elaborate on this? I’m certainly not arguing with you–I’m just curious. I have plenty of experience sitting in classrooms and discussing law, but no experience at all with actually being in a courtroom, making plea deals, and so on. I’d really like to hear your views on public defenders, on private (paid) lawyers, on how the justice system works from a defendant’s point of view, etc.
Thanks for starting this thread; it’s really interesting. And major congratulations on ten years sober!
My parents can best be described as indifferent during my childhood. As long as I was not directly screwing them up they did not care all that much. I was the kid that never had a curfew and came and went as he pleased. My parents are well off yet heavy drinkers. They never tried to help me with bail or legal problems, they would let me sit in jail even if the bail as only 500.00
I did not get any support. I talk to them and they seem proud of me me now. I resent that though. I feel they deserve no right in any pride from my hard work and their absence. They came to see the restaurant this summer and I hated it. It is on a boardwalk and I have worked my ass off cultivating a great reputaions with the other businesses. They told my parents how wonderful I was and my parents glowed and basked in pride. I could have sent both of them packing right then. My father talks almost solely of money. This is annoying to no end. To paint a clearer picture if something ever tragic happened in my life, really tragic I feel I may not get around to calling them for a week or two. I seek so support from them. They are still married and I talk with my father about his rent houses about once every three weeks. My sister is so religious I can not talk with her but maybe once every 6 months or less. I am a grown man (36), and I hate that I have issues still steaming from my parents.
This is true. I do no think that I have come far enough. I constantly feel as though I am trying to play catch up. I often feel that I am week natured and when I discuss this with others almost no one even kinda understands were I am coming from.
fifty-six, your posts have touched me, and I felt emotional as I read them. While I’ve never been in your situation, I can see the candor and honesty in your posts. That much honesty is rare in real life and almost non-existent on message boards. So thanks for starting the thread and writing your posts.
I’m another former prisoner. I hope fifty-six doesn’t mind if I chime in here and there.
If you or a loved one is ever in trouble Do Not Use A Public Defender. Get a lawyer and pay the money. A lot of PD’s are hard-working and honest but that’s not how the system works. You’ve got to pay to play.
I went with a Public Defender and wound up with a sentence of 3 years suspended after 1 and 3 years probation. Had I paid a lawyer, I’m certain I would have only received probation and time-served (time locked up pre-sentencing.)
I wasn’t naive or idealistic during my ride through the system but I was shocked at how fast-food justice is actually meted out. Nearly everyting is a negotiated deal between the prosecutors and defense lawyers. Countless times I heard lawyers tell their clients a specific monetary figure to improve a plea deal. This wasn’t whispered behind closed doors; the lawyers would come right up to the bars in the courthouse holding cell and do business.
John Grisham’s nonfiction work last year, The Innocent Man, told the tale of a couple of 18-year-old (I think) small-town kids who got trapped in the system based on a lot of bullshit (non-)evidence and such; a recurring theme was that they would get nailed based on jailhouse snitches. Grisham painted a picture of jailhouse snitches as dime-a-dozen floormates who would gladly embellish, or just make up, stories about conversations with the defendants in exchange for time off their sentence. The reader is left with the impression that every criminal defendant who’s already in prison has no bigger menace than jailhouse snitches, and that every prison is brimming with people who will gladly tell lies about the homies on the stand.
How does your experience square up with that? Also, would the other guys find out who the jailhouse snitch was, generally? If so, what happened to him?
I can only speak for the courts I have been to. They are all different.
In Texas when I was going through the legal system it was insanly crowded. I am not kidding, in a cell with 16 beds there were usually 35 people in them all laying on the floors and whatever. The courts were backed up. It still may be the case I just don’t know.
I would get in trouble or locked up form some simple misdemeanor. I would have an opportunity for bail but I would not usually see the Judge on the matter or really meat with anyone at all. I would be told what my bail was. I almost never could afford it even if it was only 500.00. So I would have to sit in jail till the court date. This could be months. Often longer than the sentence would be. I think it would be fair to say by the time most simple cases go to court they will have time served. I would maybe have one or two at the most short meetings with a public defender. I could not really call them much as they had an onslaught of people in jail always bugging them and well it was just useless to call.
Here is the problem. If you make bail you are out of jail. You have time and ability to gather resources to keep yourself from going back. You can meet and discuss your case with an attorney at any time. You can gather witnesses. You get to keep your job and house and well everything. Your motivation is to stay out. So you can goto trial make appeals whatever. Time is on your side.
If you do not make bail your stuck in hellish county conditions. Your sole motivation is to get out of jail. County jails all over the country are not meant for long term housing and are usually hated by inmates. Many cant wait to get carted of to a real prison. So with an overburdened public defender not really caring about your case and bad conditions and already a month or so in jail you are bound to take whatever they offer. You are screwed. If you are innocent for a simple crime that may only give you 30 days in jail or less would you do another couple months waiting for a trial date. Or just take the plea bargain and get out that day? Texas was notorious for offering plea bargains that were not really much of deal at all. Because they know you were motivated to get out and would take anything. If you were already free and they offered some outrageous probation terms or some amount of time in jail you may choose to fight it. Goto trial.
I don’t know what you have learned in law classes but I would like for you to look at something. In the counties that are overclouded, are the plea bargains similar to places that are a bit more speedy. Are plea bargains similar to people that made bail? Who goes to trial people that made bail or people that did not. I bet you already know the answers.
This sounds like the worst thing. It sounds like there’s basically no way a mild mannered person who doesn’t mean anybody any harm or insult is going to get by on a live and let live basis. Do I hear that right?
Which would you say is worse, having to fight your way like this? or losing your outside life and freedom?
I read an interesting book a while back: “You’ve Got Nothing Coming: Notes from a Prison Fish”, by Jimmy Lerner, a white collar guy who spent a couple of years in prison after killing someone in Las Vegas. In the book, I got the impression that weapons were common in his prison and it was conventional wisdom that you had to carry something to protect yourself, even though being caught with it would extend your sentence. He also described stabbings being somewhat routine, almost.
Does this mesh with your experience? Did a lot of people carry weapons? Did you? Did people ever stab each other?
As for what is worse. I was at the bottom of my life the the time. Although I was from a well to do family and lived in a nice area, I had no one. I was alone and screwed and at the mercy of everyone. Police, guards, judges, addiction and inmates.
Everything to me at the time was equivalentto having my gut riped out. I was completely powerless. My charm, intelligence, intellect, humor, that was all useless here. learning to fight, I mean really fight, regardless of the outcome was empowering and allowed me to use some of my talents and wits to some effect to get along while incarcerated.
Losing my freedom was akin to losing a loved one. It is a deep inner longing. You leanr to deal with it though or you will go crazy.
This is accurate. Everything can be a weapon. A ball point pen or a pencil makes a great stabbing device. Most stabbings are not fatal because it is hard to actually make a shank capable of doing that, but does happen.
This does not occur in most city jails.
A week before I learned how to fight I planed a stabbing. I was gonna stab this dude in the eye when he was sleeping. I ended up fighting two others in the same day and I immediatly got respect an did not have to go through with the stabbing.
I have not been stabbed. I was cut with a razor once and had hot liquids thrown at me, no big deal. I never stabbed but I did have weapon from time to time. And I have made and sold them as well.
I can relate, I was also in trouble and broke as a young man, congradulations on lifting yourself out of that cycle.
You have given me some insight towards my older brother. He has been in and out of jail/prisons all his life due to drugs and alcohol and never bothering to keep a valid drivers license, insurance and registration all at the same time. And then, knowing he has no valid DL he sees no problem with drinking 10 beers and driving home!
Yes, about that the amount was a bit more in Texas I believe. Around 200. But you had to buy your own bus ticket. Oh yea, you got clothes too. Imagine the cast away cloths that Salvation Army cant sell. That is what you get.
Texas inmates were always fighting to get their horse and 40 acres of land. There is an old law on the books that has never been wiped properly from what I hear. Of course no one gets it.
I never took enough writing classes to properly describe the feeling. I will try anyhow.
Even though from time to time you have access outside or maybe you are being transfered to one jail or another there is nothing like walking outside after being locked up for any amount of time. The sky and light is always brighter than you think it should be, even if it is cloudy. You can smell the gas and oil on the streets. Everyone moves very quickly. These feelings fade soon enough and I would become acclimated again over a nice cigarette. The next thing that comes up is a hunger. I would usually be hungry. The release process will likely cause you to skip a meal or two. It is common to dream and think about what you will first do when you get out. What you may eat, drink, screw, smoke. But this is now the real world and anything will suffice. Make a couple phone calls. To who? Well probably your old friends that helped you get inhere. Have a party that night. Most people will really do you right. Many drugs alcohol whatever you desire. That connection back with people takes a awhile though. You have to fight not to use jail house lingo and language Even amongst unsavory characters in the free world jail house language is not acceptable. I usually had an identity transition that lasted for several days. I couldn’t really talk about who and what I was in jail. I let most people think I just sat in a cell the whole time. My close friends wouldn’t really understand or I didn’t care to tell them. I was usually the life of the parties. The first couple mights I often just sat and watched. Head swimming with thought.
My last time in court I had a paid attorney. After being extradited from Alaska to Texas. After ten years or so being drug around and lost in the system for petty shit. I got an apology from the judge for all I went through he suggested I eventually try to get it off my record.
Yes you heard it. the one and only time i had a paid attorney. I got to talk with a Judge and I received and apology.
40 acres and a mule was proposed compensation for freed slaves after the civil war, never heard it used as compensation for released prisoners (and I’m from Texas).