Depends on the degree of formality, how long I’m going to be there, and how difficult I perceive the audience. Two hours at an office picnic is $300.00. I’ll read around 40 fortunes, make lots of jokes about the company stock, and make sure the Death Card and the Tower are pulled out for all upper managements readings. At a Halloween or carnival theme debutante party where the atmosphere is very formal and I’m intermittently doing readings for 5 to 6 hours and probably helping out other performers: $1,500.00 at least.
That could be an interesting discussion.
How?
Isn’t this saying, “many others are doing it so I’ll do it until they stop”?
All to ask:
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How does intent determine whether an action is true or honest?
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Why would you stop charging fees if others, whom I think you are saying are potentially dishonest, would stop? As a moral person, shouldn’t you take the step to stop first?
:snipped:
One, I think she might be fleecing the sheep. I eagerly await her answers to my latest questions.
Two, the River Cruise workers “wink wink”, knowing that you don’t really believe it is a river cruise. You pay for the experience, knowing it is fake. Fortune Tellers, in general, lie about what they do, allowing you to believe that they have a supernatural ability to tell the future.
Of course, people deserve it, but I would love to hear a fortune teller admit that it is a scam.
Again, I’m not trying to be aggressive or antagonistic; I just want to follow the conversation and ask rational questions. I really appreciate the answers. 
I have to take issue with this to some extent re what constitutes a “lie” in what is (IMO) borderline performance art. For an adult to effectively say “She said fairies existed and could give me advice, I chose to believe her, and she took my money after giving me the fairy advice”.
At some point you have to stop and and understand that this is a dance. People WANT magical advice and are willing to pay for it. People will chase down magical advice with unrelenting fervor.
If someone says to this person “I can give you magical advice for a reasonable fee” then I think that’s a mutual contract they have made to suspend disbelief and indulge the client’s fantasies. If an escort dresses up as a cheerleader to indulge a client’s fetish is she liable if she is not an actual cheerleader? I think we’re sort of in that territory.
How far does society have to go to protect extremely credulous, stupid, or emotionally needy people who want desperately to believe in magic?
Naturally, it’s perfectly fine to steal from people lucky enough to be born into rich families. :rolleyes:
No argument there. But, what if a client told you inside information about a hot stock IPO that was guaranteed to make a fortune? Would you invest? Or, what if some struggling writer told you his idea for a blockbuster summer film, would you sell the idea to Hollywood yourself, before he has the chance?
Also, in your opinion, do the majority of people in your industry share the same degree of moral relativism?
One could say the same thing about religion. But at least there are some legal protections to keep organized religion in check, and you can attend church for free, instead of paying $150 per session to keep fueling your fantasy delusion. To each his own, but as for my magical fantasy world, I’ll stick with Shivering Isles.
I 100% agree.
However, I don’t think ZPG is doing this. He/She does not say that it is a gag and then sell it. If he/she did, it’s cool.
I don’t feel bad/pity for the people ripped off. I simply want the rip-offer to admit it.
We are not in the “escort as a fake cheerleader” territory at all. If ZPG just says, “yeah’, it’s a scam/lie/gag and I totally tell everyone that”, then it is the same. Instead, he/she says that intent determines truth and that he/she is not lying.
Basically, ZPG(unless I’m wrong), is like a stripper who says, “I really am a supernaturally enabled cheerleader who can tell your future and you should give me your money.” This sounds cool, but I do expect the individual to admit that it’s a huge scam.
ZPG is involved in a huge scam. He/She should just admit it, as a morally responsible person.
I don’t think she has a duty to do this anymore than magician or an escort specializing in fetish fantasies does in working through their performance art. It’s borderline insane to expect a performance artist promoting magical fantasy to say "You know this is all BS right? before the performance begins. She’s a hard working carny working with willing participants and has more or less tacitly admitted it. Dopers minds are being blown because they can’t wrap their heads around a morally upright, perfectly ethical service transaction taking place that’s based on an objectively irrational belief.
Do you use sleight of hand or other conjuring tricks to ensure the reading goes the way you want (such as making sure the Death card appears).
Have you considered being a magician as a profession instead?
When you’re doing a reading, do you have the feeling that you’re being rational, and maybe following some sort of internal flow chart, or is it more like a free improvisation that you make up as you go along? Or both?
My mind isn’t blown, but the part I bolded is a weird statement. It is not a upright, ethical service based upon an irrational belief, is it?
Not far. People deserve to be ripped off if they are dumb.
Since, however, the thread was created by the fortune teller, I’d just like to see how she responds to…well, your statement.
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Are your customers often credulous, stupid, emotionally weak people who desperately want to believe in magic?
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If so, what led you to choose a career taking advantage of that?
By the way, this is one of the more fascinating threads I’ve read in awhile. Thanks for starting it and for being willing to answer my questions.
This is really interesting stuff. Thanks for starting the thread, ZPG Zealot.
She’s never claimed to be a psychic.
Have to say I agree with you here. Nearly all non-children understand what they’re getting into with fortune telling. The fact that ZPG Zealot has to dress for the role tells you pretty much everything: she’s Romany, but she has to dress up to fit people’s image of what a fortune teller is supposed to look like because it’s a game. It’s paid entertainment. And as far as giving people advice goes, advice is worthless unless it’s presented in a fashion that the recipient will accept it. Sometimes that’s from a friend, sometimes it’s from someone in a doctor’s office, sometimes I guess it has to be from a fortune teller.
Thanks for the thread, it was a fun read.
I have no qualms with what you’re presenting yourself as doing here, and you seem like a cool person. You could just be lying, but aren’t we all taking that risk when we post online?
So yeah- if you’re doing just what you seem to say you’re doing, I’ve got no issues with it, and think that’s actually pretty cool.
Good luck to you and may you find better times in the economy.
One Q: How does the family view your “talents”?
I also want to thank you for a very interesting thread. As to those who keep insisting she is lieing… she claims to be predicting the future. She is not stating it as a fact, she is “predicting” what will happen. Why is this any worse than the TV weatherman who predicts the weather. He doesn’t say it absolutely happen, but based on his tools which may be radar etc. he thinks it will rain. She is not saying it will absolutely going to happen but based on her tools which may be intuition etc. she thinks the client will leave their unhappy marrage. I predict that nobody who has posted to this thread will win the lottery this week. Am I lieing with this statement?
She also very clearly stated that she didn’t know where her skill in predictions comes from. Is it supernatural or spiritual or just dumb luck… she doesn’t know. Why does a top athelete have better skills then most or why does a scientist have better skills at their field… is it a god given talent? We seem to accept just fine when the person thanks god for whatever achievement without requiring them to provide proof of divine intervention. Seems like people here are normally perfectly happy defending the right of people to have “alternative” beliefs.
I have seen fortune teller businesses, and nobody has ever forced me to go in and taken my money against my will. My wife has paid a few bucks for a reading at a fair once or twice… she considers it entertainment and has no problem spending the money for it. It is just as fun imagining the ability and accuracy of the prediction as it is dreaming about how your life will change when you win the big lottery.
Decks are usually preprepared for card reading and no sleight of hand is required to get the right cards in the right places. In purely entertainment readings, almost everything is preset and the cards are merely part of the act. In other cases, it depends on what I think is needed for the situation.
None of the professional magicians I know earn remotely what I earn. Many of them have asked for my help in getting into the fortune telling business. Also, I like helping people. The United States has very little public mental health services and there is not enough help for people with substance abuse problems. For some of my clients, I’m all they’ve got. Before you begrudge me the $20.00 a week I take for talking with them, consider how much damage some of these people could do if they go back to the bottle or the meth.
Women in my family have been fortune tellers since as far back as we can remember. It is the family tradiation. They view my “talents” as appropriate though one of my grandmothers thinks I could get much better if I followed her advice more often.
Yes. In some cases (okay most of the really die hard, long-term clients) it is as simple as that. Some of the other long-term clients have had disasterous experiences in organized religion.
[quote=“Mahaloth, post:91, topic:506892”]
- If so, what led you to choose a career taking advantage of that?
QUOTE]
I may take money appropriate for the time and effort I expend, but I don’t take everything. The people that come to me out of sincere belief aren’t going to go buy the Skeptical Inquirier if I close my business. Some of them can’t even read. I can either do what I do as a wise woman or I can watch somebody with less scruples than me ruin their lives.
Consider it street justice on behalf of the workers the family stole from to make their fortune. And like I said, any money I took from him meant less he spent on drugs.
Since I don’t know how to do either of those things, no.
Actually, some have considerably less integrity than me. I protect my clients from people like that.
Not always, some churches are very mercenary about exploiting their congregation.
Rational all the way.