# Ask the Gay Guy III! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2000, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iii/34021 "2000-09-21T17:33:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Keenan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b2d939/32.png) [@Keenan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keenan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iii/34021/21 "2000-09-21T21:39:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wildest Bill \* > \*\*mjh2, > > Man I don’t know dude. I just have a hard time understanding it I guess because chicks are so dang good looking. Is that bad of me to not understand? I mean put it this way if I was a girl I would probably be gay. \*\* Just wanted to be the first to challenge this counterfactual. If you were a girl, you would most likely be straight, and be attracted to men. And you’d be wired, both genetically and through socialization, to be aso ttacted – it wouldn’t be a conscious choice, based on weighing the various features of men and women. Of course, you could turn out to be a lesbian, in which case you would indeed be attracted to other women. But it still wouldn’t be based on the kind of conscious choice that you imagine. Your sexual identity is just part of who you are. The reason you’re having trouble understanding gay attraction is because it’s really hard to put yourself into someone else’s place – even if you don’t intend to, you carry along your preferences and biases. It’s like male comedians who say “If I had breasts, I’d never get out of the shower.” Funny, but false, because it’s only an incomplete imagining – if the comedian were truly a woman, he’d have a completely different attitude towards his own body. Or thinking, “If I were a woman, I could have sex all the time!” Probably true, because it’s always easy to find horny guys – but you probably wouldn’t want to just sleep with every guy you could find, because you’d be socialized differently as a woman. It’s like saying “I can’t see why people in Canada don’t become Americans. America is so much better than Canada. If I were Canadian, I’d move to the U.S. as soon as I could.” Well, if you actually were born and raised Canadian, you’d probably have a different view of the situation. You’d see the U.S. through a completely different prism, and so would have feelings that you really can’t understand right now. And that’s a pretty lousy analogy, because I’m granting you your assumption that people can choose their allegiance. I think for the vast majority of people, their sexual identity is just something they’re born with. I was born both straight and American. I really enjoy both. But, if I were born gay, I’d be Canadian. No, wait, that wasn’t my point. Uh, I really need to write an outline first. My point is that just because you can’t imagine another point of view does not mean that it doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Wildest\_Bill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Wildest\_Bill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildest_Bill)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iii/34021/22 "2000-09-21T21:45:53Z")
Keenon, That was a very good explanation. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iii/34021/23 "2000-09-21T21:53:08Z")
Okay, I didn’t mean to imply that tracer was gay, need to work on my sintax… ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iii/34021/24 "2000-09-21T22:05:19Z")
So what faiths accept homosexuals? For who they are, without trying to convert them? ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iii/34021/25 "2000-09-21T23:09:35Z")
Why do gay people like to start threads to discuss their sexuality? I don’t see a ‘Ask the Straight Guy I’ thread, much less an ‘Ask the Straight Guy III’. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iii/34021/26 "2000-09-21T23:33:25Z")
**BM** , I think the OP already answered your question very clearly. But anyway: as **Esprix** said, it’s because they’re trying to help out curious straight people who have questions about gay sexuality and want honest, well-informed answers. You’ll note that the postings by gay people here have been responding (for the most part) to the questions posed by straight posters like **Sunshine** and **Wildest Bill** and **vanilla**. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iii/34021/27 "2000-09-21T23:36:29Z")
And as for why there aren’t similar threads about straight sexuality: duh! Heterosexuality is the norm in this society, and information about it is available everywhere, including in most people’s own experience. (Though a good deal of information about heterosexuality also gets passed around on threads like these, from a comparative perspective so to speak.) ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iii/34021/28 "2000-09-21T23:40:16Z")
I’d think that if someone had a question about homosexuality, they would post it. I see lots of other questions in these forums. The placement of these posts makes it seem like trolling (why not in General Questions?). ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2000, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iii/34021/29 "2000-09-21T23:55:53Z")
Sorry if I seemed a bit pissy, I don’t have anything against homosexuals (my wife is bisexual). I actually enjoyed the first Ask the Gay Guy thread, it just seemed that most valid questions had already been asked, seems a bit much. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2000, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iii/34021/30 "2000-09-22T00:53:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Estrella \* > \*\*Here’s one: > > I’ve had very erotic dreams about women before. No big whoop to me, but I recall a straight girl friend of mine once was telling she had dreamt she was kissing a woman. She was freaked because she considered herself very straight and couldn’t figure out where the dream was coming from. (This reminds me of the Ally and Will& Grace episodes where something along those lines happens.) > > Anyhoo, have any of you gay boys had erotic heterosexual dreams? Or even, have any heterosexual men had homosexual dreams? > > \*\* I was trying to buy my first car a few years ago and it was pretty darn stressful. I had a dream that I was giving head to the local jeep dealer. I am a straight male but I can’t say the dream really disturbed me. I just ignored it and moved on with my life. Marc ---
**Author:** ![beakerxf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@beakerxf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beakerxf)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2000, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iii/34021/31 "2000-09-22T01:17:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Badtz Maru \* > Why do gay people like to start threads to discuss their sexuality? I don’t see a ‘Ask the Straight Guy I’ thread, much less an ‘Ask the Straight Guy III’. If I recall correctly, there was a Ask the Straight Guy back in April. Wild Bill, sorry for beating a dead horse, but I wanted to toss my $0.02 in. Not every man who meets your wife falls in love with her. Not an insult to your wife, (I assume she’s a very nice lady). Yet, you fell in love with her. She had the right combination of looks, personality, and beliefs that hooked you. You can look at other women and find them pleasing to look at, but that doesn’t mean you’d ever feel the _near_ the same thing for them that you do for your wife. I have been friends with men all my life, but have never fallen in love with one. On the other hand, I have at least a dozen or more crushes on various female friends. I don’t know why, it’s just the way it works. Now, on to the dream question. Yes, I have had sex dreams involving men, but they’re always the strangest choices. The last one about three months ago involved Telly Savalas. :eek: Tell your friend that having a dream about another woman doesn’t make her gay, especially if it was about a friend. I have read that sex dreams can come about because of unresolved conflicts and a desire to make up for it. I’m sure there are other theories out there, but that’s the only one I’m familiar with. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2000, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iii/34021/32 "2000-09-22T02:39:16Z")
Late for the party, again! 😃 My $0.02 on a few issues: **Wildest Bill** , a point you might want to consider. Sexuality isn’t simply an issue of gay vs straight. It covers a whole spectrum of desires and feelings. Think of all the female traits you find most attractive. Now consider a woman who has exactly the opposite of those traits. There’s someone in the world who finds THAT type of woman attractive, even tho you would find her un-attractive. And why are there some guys who have feminine traits while others have masculine? Not everyone is a clone, there is no monolithic GLBT community, where we all have the same desires and wants. We’re as diverse as any other group of people. \*\*vanilla asked: So what faiths accept homosexuals? For who they are, without trying to convert them?\*\* In Christianity, the Metropolitan Community Church and Church of Christ are pretty openly accepting of the GLBT community. Most others have made official proclaimations against homosexuality. Individual congregations vary. You’ll have to check. Buddhism isn’t specifically anti-gay, but seems to believe that sex in general leads you off the path of enlightenment. Could any of the real Buddhists here confirm this for me? I’m pretty much remember this from a course on Asian Religions I had back in school. Wicca and most other Neo-Pagan faiths are accepting. There are whole covens/congregations composed entirely of gay men, lesbians or whatever. \*\*vanilla also wrote: I have a question: When did you first realize you were gay? How did you realize it?\*\* I didn’t use the word _gay_ for myself 'til I was about 14 or so. But I knew I was different when I was about 10 or 11. I realised that I ought to be attracted to women but kept eyeing the head of the basketball team. This was in the late 60s and early 70s, so no one ever mentioned the word _homosexual_ let alone talk about it. I finally got my hands on some books that explained it, albeit in a medical sort of way, but I understood what they meant. As for dreams, I’ll admit that once, many years ago, I had a quick dream of being in a sexual position with a woman. I don’t recall anything other than it happened. Weird actually. ---
**Author:** ![Doobieous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Doobieous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doobieous)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2000, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iii/34021/33 "2000-09-22T04:20:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Ok, > > I got one. How can y’all possible find a dude more attractive than a chic. While there some “decent” looking guys they just don’t compare to a girl. Well, this has been answered well by others, but i’ll throw my 2 cents in… Why do I find a dude more attractive than a woman? I dont know, i just do. It’s not something that can really be explained (other than the obvious: “because that’s what attracts me”). As goboy said, women dont give me that spark. I too can appreciate the aesthetic qualities of women (there are many i find aesthetically pleasing), but only men spark that sexual desire. \*\*vanilla asked: I have a question: When did you first realize you were gay? How did you realize it?\*\* My memories of my childhood earlier than maybe middle school arent very clear, but I do know that around middle school was when I started to feel attracted towards guys. Back then i didnt place a lable on it (not until HS), but I knew i felt more comfortable when in the presence of guys. Like this one guy who had the same morning PE class as me. I used to like hanging around him…a lot. I remember looking at him and thinking how wonderful it would be to catch a glimpse of him without his shirt off. I think I may have had a crush on him (as faint as it was…and I had always found him attractive, even through HS). I remember when I figured out I was gay, i didnt try to convince myself otherwise _too_ much (for a while i would tell myself I could be bi, even though the attraction to women was lacking (probably to reassure myself there _was_ hope that I couldn’t possibly be gay)). Anyway, as I said, i pretty much knew I was gay in HS. \*\*Andygirl asks: Does it seem that if being gay is not a choice, having pride in something that you didn’t have anything to do with is strange? \*\* Not much more than being proud of your ethnic heritage. However, for me, it’s not really being proud of being gay, but being proud of who I am. That encompasses everything about me, from being gay, to being biracial, to being a gardener. Being gay is only a part of me, but not everything about me. I am proud of being me And on sexual dreams: There’s only one dream I remember that involved me having sex with a girl. It was in middle school, and I remember being in one of the classrooms with a girl notorious for sleeping around (this wasnt a slight on her, it was pretty much the truth). Anyway, so there I am in class and she’s there, and i’m sitting, and she’s straddling me. I remember the action taking place as us having sex. That was the only dream I can remember that involved having sex with a woman.I found it very strange, rather than erotic (gee, i wonder why? :D). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Kentzel-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2000, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iii/34021/34 "2000-09-22T05:03:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by \ ***vanilla** > When did you first realize you were gay? > How did you realize it? I’m glad the question wasn’t “When did you turn gay?”. I realized I was gay when I was twenty years old with the help of a friend in college that I met at the Episcopal Student center. (Hmm…, Is “help” the right word here? Uh…) I called myself bi for about a year. Then I realized I wasn’t really bi. > [@](#): > > So what faiths accept homosexuals? For who they are, without trying to convert them? Anyway, I have gotten away from church. But I know the Episcopal church has no problem accepting gays. There is an Episcopal gay group called [Integrity](http://www.integrityusa.org/). Matthew Shepard was an Episcopalian. The Presiding Bishop issued a statement on his death. Integrity’s president “plead for an end to the use of that oft-repeated phrase, ‘Love the sinner, hate the sin.’” because it is the language of hate. _re dreams_ I’ve had sexual dreams about women. Kinda strange, but then all of my dreams are kinda strange. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2000, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iii/34021/35 "2000-09-22T05:07:19Z")
Can you tell me if there is a known cause of homosexuality? Genetic? Hormonal? Psychological? Is it known whether it is a (benign) disorder or simply a natural state? Also, do homosexuals find their own bodies sexually attractive? Can they get turned on by looking at themselves in a mirror? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Kentzel-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2000, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iii/34021/36 "2000-09-22T05:45:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by \*\*\*Max the Immortal \*\* > Can you tell me if there is a known cause of homosexuality? Genetic? Hormonal? Psychological? Is it known whether it is a (benign) disorder or simply a natural state? Oh, wow. Pretty much everbody has their own theory. It used to be thought that it was the result of a hormonal imbalance. I don’t many still believe that though. Genetics seems to be a popular cause. Myself, I don’t claim to know; I think it’s genetic, but I wouldn’t rule out environmental factors. I don’t think anybody knows for sure. As to whether it is a (benign) disorder or simply a natural state, it feels natural to me. I don’t like the word disorder. It sounds like something that can and should be fixed. The answer to your question is there are several schools of thought - those you mentioned and others. > [@](#): > > \*Also posted by \ ***Max the Immortal** > Also, do homosexuals find their own bodies sexually attractive? Can they get turned on by looking at themselves in a mirror? Do I find myself attractive? Hell, I’m fucking gorgeous! But that’s not because I’m homosexual, I’m just vain. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2000, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iii/34021/37 "2000-09-22T07:41:25Z")
Hell, I’ve been known to see myself in the mirror and exclaim, “damn, I’m good looking. Why, if I was gay, I’d do me.” People I know wonder about me sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Chef\_Troy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Chef\_Troy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chef_Troy)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2000, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iii/34021/38 "2000-09-22T14:10:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by opus \* > **…A guy has fun things to play with, they’re just in different places than on a woman. Some people like the ferris wheel, others like the merry-go-round.** And the reason they don’t understand each other’s attractions is that they travel in different circles. so to speak. ```auto Prefer your gayness with a mixer instead of (so to speak) straight up? Stop by [Ask Bi Guy!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=23013) ``` ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2000, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iii/34021/39 "2000-09-22T14:32:14Z")
**Badtz Maru:** _I actually enjoyed the first Ask the Gay Guy thread, it just seemed that most valid questions had already been asked, seems a bit much._ Well hecky darn, we’ve already asked most of the valid questions about libertarianism, evolution, taxation, gun control, and Christianity too, but we keep starting new threads about them! This is just one of those Perennial Topics, and I don’t think **Esprix** is out of line in renewing it occasionally when the previous ATGG thread gets too long; if people lose interest in the thread it will die a natural death. (If **Esprix** tries to put it on life-support with “bump” posts when that happens, on the other hand, you may spank his little butt. ;)) ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2000, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iii/34021/40 "2000-09-22T14:45:34Z")
Newsflash–John Paulk, poster boy of Focus on the Family’s ex-gay efforts and chairman of the board of Exodus International, was caught having drinks at [Mr. P’s](http://www.planetout.com/pno/), a sleazy pick-up bar in Washington, DC. A Human Rights Campaign staffer was in having an after-work drink when he spotted Mr. Paulk. Paulk panicked when he realized he had been found out and fled. Later, he gave a lame excuse about not knowing Mr. P’s was a gay bar and he just wanted to use the restroom. The guy was in there for forty minutes buying guys drinks, and nobody would go in Mr. P’s to use the can because the bar is a real pit. On P Street there are good hotels and fast food restaurants with bathrooms he could have used. What a clown! Why doesn’t he admit he’s a big ol’ flamer and stop doing harm with this ex-gay, “Jesus can free you” BS? I wonder how the religious right will react? If they realize that it’s impossible to change orientation through miraculous intervention, will they just go back to “gays are evil”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iii/34021.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iii/34021.md?page=3)