# Ask the Gay Guy IV! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2001, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iv/63014 "2001-04-23T17:04:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2001, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iv/63014/141 "2001-06-07T08:13:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MGibson \* > \*\* > > Oh my god! I was already there!! > > Marc \*\* In about a month, I will have interviews up that I am doing with William Moulton Marston’s son, Pete as well as an interview with Phil Jiminez. I have spent twenty years researching Wonder Woman. I hope that what I have done in putting some of that research on the web is useful to others. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2001, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iv/63014/142 "2001-06-07T08:21:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hastur \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by MGibson \* > > \*\* > > > > Oh my god! I was already there!! > > > > Marc \*\* > > In about a month, I will have interviews up that I am doing with William Moulton Marston’s son, Pete as well as an interview with Phil Jiminez. I have spent twenty years researching Wonder Woman. I hope that what I have done in putting some of that research on the web is useful to others. \*\* You’re website is actually pretty cool. I like your collectable list. I take it you’ve gotten your hands on the DC Direct Wonder Woman figure? I almost bought it for my neice for her birthday but I didn’t think it was poseable enough to be a good toy. I got her Supergirl instead. I see you have a stronger obsession with Wonder Woman then I do with Spider-Man, Batman, or Nightwing. I’m impressed. And with that I shall cease my hijacking of this thread. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2001, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iv/63014/143 "2001-06-07T17:02:30Z")
If I may interrupt the comic book hijack the thread has taken for a moment: I find myself in a sticky wicket. In a post relating to the Religious Right’s negative attitudes towards gay people, I cited off the “usual suspects”: Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, the Rev. James Dobson (of Focus on the Family)… That third name may have been a mistake. I’m dealing with a group at least one of whom was friends with the Rev. Dr. Dobson when he began his ministry – which in its early years was quite a good one, from a Christian perspective. I promised to provide cites of Mr. Dobson’s “demonizing of gays” in response to his somewhat heated question. It turns out that, while there’s little likelihood Focus on the Family will be running a float in the Colorado Pride Parade ;), there are no specific antigay quotes from him in anything I’ve got on hand or found in a rather cursory Web search. I thought this thread, which I believe is read by most of the gay contingent of SDMB, might be a good way to request anything _specific_ and _documented_ in the lines of antigay quotes from Mr. Dobson or Focus on the Family. I’ll need to be able to prove my point to these people by documented cites – not what Urvashi Vaid or Michelangelo Signorile or Peter Cummings _thinks_ his stance is, but what he, or his group, actually said. On the other hand, knowing the fairmindedness and intellectual honesty of the person in question who knows him, it may possibly be an “in” to changing the opinion of a man who I _thought_ was outspoken against gays, if I can prove that he in fact is, to him. Any help you can provide will be vastly appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2001, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iv/63014/144 "2001-06-07T17:46:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*On the other hand, knowing the fairmindedness and intellectual honesty of the person in question who knows him, it may possibly be an “in” to changing the opinion of a man who I _thought_ was outspoken against gays, if I can prove that he in fact is, to him. > > Any help you can provide will be vastly appreciated. \*\* Poly, you might wish to look into Dr. Dobson’s connections with groups like Exodus International. While it’s not a vehemently anti-gay group, it is a “reparative therapy” group and I’m sure I’ve read of a connection between it and Dobson. Though this may not be what you’re looking for… jayjay ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2001, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iv/63014/145 "2001-06-07T17:58:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\* > Any help you can provide will be vastly appreciated. \*\* Ask and ye shall recieve. from [http://www.ifas.org/fw/9608/dobson.html](http://www.ifas.org/fw/9608/dobson.html) > [@](#): > > “These scriptures leave little room for debate. The only way their message can be negated is to reject the authority of God’s Word … our responsibility is to call sin by its name and to admonish men and women to live in purity and holiness … Whereas we are obligated to treat gay and lesbian individuals with respect, we are morally responsible to oppose the radical agenda of the gay rights movement. What they are trying to accomplish in the culture is wrong, and it must be resisted.” [http://www.family.org/docstudy/newsletters/a0001935.html](http://www.family.org/docstudy/newsletters/a0001935.html) From [http://gaytoday.badpuppy.com/garchive/people/051198pe.htm](http://gaytoday.badpuppy.com/garchive/people/051198pe.htm) > [@](#): > > Dobson claimed “I am familiar with the widespread effort to redefine the family. It is motivated by homosexual activists…who see the traditional family as a barrier > to [their] social engineering.” In a 1991 article, he equated sexual orientation to bestiality, saying, “There are people in our society who find sexual satisfaction from engaging in intercourse with animals…Would anyone suggest that these groups deserve special protection?” ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2001, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iv/63014/146 "2001-06-08T18:25:25Z")
Ya know what? I’ve been rather lax 'round here lately. I need to rectify that this weekend… Esprix ---
**Author:** ![K3v1n](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b19c9b/32.png) [@K3v1n](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K3v1n)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2001, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iv/63014/147 "2001-06-09T06:08:33Z")
If gay people like people of the same sex, why is there usually one that acts as the ‘female’? And why do they both act femimine if they don’t like women? You’d think they’d both act like GUYS. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2001, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iv/63014/148 "2001-06-09T06:54:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by K3v1n \* > \*\*If gay people like people of the same sex, why is there usually one that acts as the ‘female’? And why do they both act femimine if they don’t like women? > > You’d think they’d both act like GUYS. \*\* Getting your info off of your teenage friends doesn’t guarantee accuracy. Gay people are as diverse as straight people. I’ve known effeminate gay men and gay lumberjacks, gay drag queens and gay wrestlers, gay florists and gay athletes. I fully expect goboy to chime in here, too, as he is definitely not of the stereotype of the nellie femme and has made that clear before. I certainly don’t look or act like the stereotype. That said, there’s nothing wrong with the stereotype. Some gay men act that way naturally. Others do it to conform to what they believe society expects of them. But not all gay men do so. And as for the other part of your question, I think most gay men are versatile. “Switch-hitters” as it were… jayjay ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2001, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iv/63014/149 "2001-06-09T07:04:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by K3v1n \* > \*\*If gay people like people of the same sex, why is there usually one that acts as the ‘female’? And why do they both act femimine if they don’t like women? > > You’d think they’d both act like GUYS. \*\* Number one, your stereotype is just that… a stereotype. Not all gay men act feminine, just as not all straight men act butch. What you are speaking of are enculturated gender roles. These are not authentic modes of being, but culturally bound expectations of gender that are reinforced by societal expectations. What you think of as “acting like guys,” I might think of as neanderthalism. Just because I can beat someone up doesn’t mean I have to. And just because I can kick down a door doesn’t mean I can’t also enjoy the ballet. Gender is not a fixed thing, but a continuum is wide. Not every person falls into the continuum in the same place, and thus some men are more feminine and some are more masculine. It just is. And it should be accepted. Too much pressure in this society comes from the rigid expectation of what it means to be a man. There are a lot of ways to be a man, and there are a lot of ways to be a woman. Androgyny is a good thing. Embrace it. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2001, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iv/63014/150 "2001-06-09T07:05:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Why is there usually one that acts as the ‘female’? Not true. In general, gay men do not adopt set sexual roles. If they did, though, what difference does it make? > [@](#): > > And why do they both act femimine 1. Many gay men do not act femme. 2. Femme gay men, for their part, do not act “like women.” 3. How **do** women act, anyway? > [@](#): > > if they don’t like women? Still not true. I like women a great deal. They’re quite fabulous to hang out with. > [@](#): > > act like GUYS. How **do** men act, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2001, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iv/63014/151 "2001-06-09T07:30:17Z")
{starts humming “Real Men” by Joe Jackson} Esprix ---
**Author:** ![MattTheCroc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MattTheCroc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MattTheCroc)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2001, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iv/63014/152 "2001-06-09T10:01:10Z")
As long as the humming includes that quite fabulous piano work… the chorus is a tad annoying, musically speaking 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2001, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iv/63014/153 "2001-06-09T18:08:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by K3v1n \* > \*\*If gay people like people of the same sex, why is there usually one that acts as the ‘female’? And why do they both act femimine if they don’t like women? > > You’d think they’d both act like GUYS. \*\* A picture of a relationship: Quietgirl and I have been together for over two years. We’ve both got hair down to our shoulder blades, wear dresses on occasion, sing in choir, are musicians (she plays flute, I’m a percussionist), and wear jewelry. She can do auto repair, but she also knows how to sew. I write poetry but I love comic books. Neither of us wear makeup, but I don’t because I’m allergic. I’m more bitchy, but she’s the one you don’t want to mess with. So which one of us is the man? Incidentally, what is acting like a man or acting like a woman anyway? Nobody does everything masculine or everything feminine. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c67d28/32.png) [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_AL_Einstein)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2001, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iv/63014/154 "2001-06-10T05:08:11Z")
Not to be a nag or anything, but you didn’t answer the question in my last post. Are you going to? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2001, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iv/63014/155 "2001-06-10T07:45:58Z")
You asked > [@](#): > > To what “holier-than-thou portion of her personal beliefs” are you referring? , to which I responded > [@](#): > > That part that fuses her deconstructionist academic training with the basic desire to wallow in her primal religious guilt, I suppose. How should I know why someone else is being a jerk? ---
**Author:** ![bagkitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ab992/32.png) [@bagkitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bagkitty)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2001, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iv/63014/156 "2001-06-10T08:21:53Z")
matt\_mcl: A couple of messages ago you asked how MEN acted. Strangely enough this was all settled at the McGill Daily circa 1985/86. It is based on the accumulation of “guy points”. Without going into excessive detail, points are awarded by the ability to belch, fart, empty a bottle of beer without pausing to breathe, etc., ad nauseum. Essentially, the less “polite” the behaviour, the more guy points are awarded, the one with the most guy points is the one acting like a man. Within the context of the McGill Daily, this meant that the two “real men” working on the paper were myself (queer as fuck, as the expression goes) and my co-production manager, a straight woman living in RVC. Your question, after all, was referring to acting. ---
**Author:** ![K3v1n](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b19c9b/32.png) [@K3v1n](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K3v1n)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2001, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iv/63014/157 "2001-06-10T08:54:56Z")
Aaah, come on. Allow me to rephrase the question. Why do **most** homosexual men act feminine (talking about fashion, makeup, doing hairstyling, etc.), when the very nature of being gay is to like the same sex. I’m just asking about the ones that do, obviously. And my stereotype isn’t exactly limited to teenagers, either. Almost any gay guy on television or in the movies acts like this (with the lisp, etc.) and when most people think of a homosexual man, that is the image they get. Speaking of which, how did that stereotype get started anyways? Remember… ::lisp:: Be Nice! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c67d28/32.png) [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_AL_Einstein)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2001, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iv/63014/158 "2001-06-10T12:19:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\*You asked > > > [@](#): > > > > To what “holier-than-thou portion of her personal beliefs” are you referring? > > , to which I responded > > > [@](#): > > > > That part that fuses her deconstructionist academic training with the basic desire to wallow in her primal religious guilt, I suppose. How should I know why someone else is being a jerk? > > \*\* Whups. I missed that. My apologies. I will look more carefully next time. Now then, there appear to be two basic elements to your response: 1: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\*deconstructionist academic training \*\* I presume that you do not know Ms. Paglia personally, and are basing your opinions on her writings. What specifically has she written to give you the impression of “deconstructionist academic training”? My own impression is that “deconstructionism” is an academic movement to which she is strongly opposed. But perhaps you can set me straight. 2: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\* the basic desire to wallow in her primal religious guilt \*\* Same coment as above. From reading her columns I get the strong impression she is an agnostic. I do look forward to you enlightening me on this. From the vehemence of your opinion you must have quite a few examples of Ms. Paglia exhibiting a “basic desire to wallow in her primal religious guilt”. Or do you have her confused with Dr. Laura? ---
**Author:** ![FisherQueen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@FisherQueen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FisherQueen)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2001, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iv/63014/159 "2001-06-10T13:22:21Z")
Just a note about stereotypes. I’m straight, but celibate at the moment for religious reasons. So my sexual relationships don’t give people any cues. I’m a woman. I wear my hair very short, spiked a little bit, because I like the way it looks and because I hate taking the time with blow-dryer and curling iron required by long hair. My body is sort of squareish. I prefer comfortable clothes, like loose-fitting pants and T-shirts, and I almost never wear high heels. I participate in full-contact sports and lift weights at the gym, because it makes me feel strong and healthy. I live in a small town. And no one I know, not even, I suspect, my family, believes that I’m straight. My current strategy has simply been not to worry about how I’m perceived, but just to live my life. But should I do something about this? Grow my hair out? Buy dresses? Start dating guys I don’t like (if there were any guys I liked in my immediate vicinity, I’d already be dating them!)? Wear a T-shirt that says, “Hi, I’m not a lesbian!” Do I have to change my own style because it’s someone else’s stereotype? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2001, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iv/63014/160 "2001-06-10T17:10:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by K3v1n \* > \*\* > Why do **most** homosexual men act feminine (talking about fashion, makeup, doing hairstyling, etc.), when the very nature of being gay is to like the same sex. > \*\* The short answer is that **most** homosexual men do not do this. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I’m just asking about the ones that do, obviously. > \*\* The ones that do, do it because they like to. That’s usually the reason why most people do most things. > [@](#): > > \*\* > And my stereotype isn’t exactly limited to teenagers, either. Almost any gay guy on television or in the movies acts like this (with the lisp, etc.) and when most people think of a homosexual man, that is the image they get. > \*\* What’s so feminine about lisping? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iv/63014.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gay-guy-iv/63014.md?page=9)