# Ask The Girl Who Just Finished Law School **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 14, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-girl-who-just-finished-law-school/496422 "2009-05-14T16:41:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-girl-who-just-finished-law-school/496422/41 "2009-05-23T01:41:36Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > High Trees case maybe? The only case English law students will know for sure is the Buick Motors case, or more accuratly Cardozo J’s dicta. Huh. A good case but if I had to I would have guessed _Palsgraf v. LIRR_ the seminal case on proximate causation. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-girl-who-just-finished-law-school/496422/42 "2009-05-23T01:43:03Z")
> [@MichaelQReilly](#): > > How could you ever forget Hadley v. Baxendale and the stupid crankshaft? 🆒 And Carbolic Smoke Ball! Good old Carbolic Smoke Ball! ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-girl-who-just-finished-law-school/496422/43 "2009-05-23T11:05:39Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Huh. A good case but if I had to I would have guessed _Palsgraf v. LIRR_ the seminal case on proximate causation. The cases used in England are _Overseas Tankship_ and The Wagon Mound (for remortness). vaugely remember Palsgraf. But _McPherson v Buick Motors_ is well known, mainly because it was one of the cases relied on in Lord Atkins judgement in _Donaghue v Stevenson_ ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-girl-who-just-finished-law-school/496422/44 "2009-05-23T15:16:46Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The cases used in England are _Overseas Tankship_ and The Wagon Mound (for remortness). vaugely remember Palsgraf. But _McPherson v Buick Motors_ is well known, mainly because it was one of the cases relied on in Lord Atkins judgement in _Donaghue v Stevenson_ Well, English law is the foundation of American law; the reverse is not true. 😃 So we learn about the English system as the source of the “law” and “equity” distinction, the source of the property law system, and lots of other areas. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-girl-who-just-finished-law-school/496422/45 "2009-05-23T15:49:50Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > If [this](http://www.law-wiki.com/wiki/Queen%27s_Conflict_of_Laws) is an accurate Canadian conflict of laws outline, then no. We cover that in “Civil Procedure.” A class in Federal Civ Pro is required and always taken in the first year; in New York at least, a class in state civil procedure is recommended but usually taken in the final year (in the hopes some will stick for the Bar). The conflict of law between state and federal government is cover in Constitutional Law, separately… I’m unsure if your link is accurately getting at what **Malthus** is talking about. Some of it looks kind of familiar (I took Conflict of Laws, myself, so have some familiarity with the subject matter), but certainly not all. It was helpful to have taken Civil Procedure before studying Conflicts because you do need to know certain things from Civ Pro in order to fully understand Conflicts; but you would never learn Civ Pro from studying Conflicts nor could you confuse the two. To put it simply, there is a lot more to Conflicts than Civ Pro. [Here](http://www.law.ualberta.ca/Current-Students/Resources/Course-Notes/Annalise-Acorn/conflicts/outline.php) is a simpler outline of a typical Conflict of Laws course. Scroll down for the itemized outline itself (and note that you will see familiar Civ Pro elements among the other topics), but this excerpt sums up the subject pretty well: > [@Typical Conflict of Laws course outline](#): > > Throughout, keep in mind that the main objectives of conflict of laws are to decide: (1) whether the courts of a legal unit have the jurisdiction to hear an action with a foreign factual element and (2) on the system of law of a particular country or subunit (e.g. province/state) which will be applied to resolve the legal question in dispute. In other words, conflict of laws is a process or mechanism used to determine which system of law is to be applied in order to resolve a dispute containing a foreign factual element. A third area of conflict of laws addresses the enforcement of foreign judgments (and arbitral awards) by the courts. Note that “foreign” as used here does not necessarily mean “international,” though that could be the case also. You would certainly expect that the US is a foreign jurisdiction to Canada, and that the state of (say) Colorado is a foreign jurisdiction to (say) the province of British Columbia. But in this context, “foreign” _also_ allows one Canadian province (e.g. Ontario) to be considered a foreign jurisdiction to another Canadian province (e.g. Alberta). It can get a little tricky trying to resolve who has jurisdiction over what, as you can imagine. > [@](#): > > Transnational Law is the law between and among countries - it included topics like treaties (formation, ratification, etc), international governing bodies, Executive foreign affairs power, as well as extraterritorial application of U.S. law. It was a required class at my law school, but that’s unusual. We called it International Law at our school. It was an elective I would have liked to take. But I didn’t–probably because I had to suffer through the (required) Conflict of Laws class. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-girl-who-just-finished-law-school/496422/46 "2009-05-23T21:59:22Z")
Ha! I avoided the Conflict and the Human Rights courses. Took Company and Adv Evidence. ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-girl-who-just-finished-law-school/496422/47 "2009-05-23T22:05:42Z")
With no job lined up, what’s your game plan for finding one? Where are you looking? Looking at all, or just studying for the Bar exam right now? (I just finished 2L year, not looking forward to trying to find a job in this market… especially since I’m in California and want to be a prosecutor. At least the law firms are still hiring some people, not so much for the state and it’s not-existent budget…) ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-girl-who-just-finished-law-school/496422/48 "2009-05-23T22:07:34Z")
Edited to Add: the below is in reference to **Spoons** post. What is “a foreign factual element?” Hm. I hope I’m not sounding utterly ignorant but are Canadian provinces far less sovereign with respect to each other than U.S. states? In US it isn’t normally complicated deciding who has jurisdiction over a situation involving multiple states. I mean, its a little complicated, but not so much to require a semester-long course. It would be a very rare circumstance to be in the court of one state, applying the law of another state. If it happened, it would largely be an entirely voluntary undertaking on the Court’s part, motivated by both comity and a strong public policy justification. _It was not intended by the provision (the privileges and immunities clause of the US Constitution) to give to the laws of one State any operation in other States. They can have no such operation, except by the permission, express or implied, of those States._ Paul v. Virginia, 75 U.S. 168 (1868). ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-girl-who-just-finished-law-school/496422/49 "2009-05-23T22:31:11Z")
> [@magnusblitz](#): > > With no job lined up, what’s your game plan for finding one? Where are you looking? Looking at all, or just studying for the Bar exam right now? Primarily, I’m studying for the bar. In between whiles, I have my eye on [idealist.org](http://idealist.org), pslawnet, [fd.org](http://fd.org), [usajobs.gov](http://usajobs.gov), craigslist, and the job websites of the zillions of NY City agencies that employ lawyers. If nothing pans out by the Bar, I have a fallback offer to work as a paralegal for a public defender. It’ll keep be busy at least, and improve my skills and keep me in the hiring loop… and at least one full time attorney working there now started as a paralegal with his JD so, who knows. I have low debtload and we’re living comfortably on my husband’s salary. It’ll be a while before I start to panic. A year, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-girl-who-just-finished-law-school/496422/50 "2009-05-23T22:37:57Z")
> [@magnusblitz](#): > > (I just finished 2L year, not looking forward to trying to find a job in this market… especially since I’m in California and want to be a prosecutor. If you haven’t already decided to, you should apply for the Attorney General’s Honors Fellowship program. You have to apply by September, 2009 for the 2010 employment year. > **[Department of Justice | Homepage | United States Department of Justice](https://www.justice.gov/)** > > Official website of the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ). DOJ’s mission is to enforce the law and defend the interests of the United States according to the law; to ensure public safety against threats foreign and domestic; to provide federal... ---
**Author:** ![bathsheba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@bathsheba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bathsheba)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-girl-who-just-finished-law-school/496422/51 "2009-05-23T23:48:19Z")
Any specific tips for writing big papers, say, 10,000 words? ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-girl-who-just-finished-law-school/496422/52 "2009-05-24T00:05:08Z")
> [@bathsheba](#): > > Any specific tips for writing big papers, say, 10,000 words? 12 pages? pshaw. That ain’t a big paper. Do a preemption check Be organized - use headings to guide the reader and yourself Cite relentlessly, correctly, and voluminously. NEVER put off bluebooking “till later” While you are still writing and rewriting your paper, don’t use ANY “ids” If lose the connection to the full cite when copying & pasting, you’ll be rummaging through your sources trying figure out where the cite comes from. Go through and apply Ids when you’re pretty much done. If necessary, fluff with enormous block quotes of statutes or pithy court opinions. (emergency use only) ---
**Author:** ![bathsheba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@bathsheba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bathsheba)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-girl-who-just-finished-law-school/496422/53 "2009-05-24T07:49:06Z")
Thanks! I really mean that. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-girl-who-just-finished-law-school/496422/54 "2009-05-24T08:21:01Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > If necessary, fluff with enormous block quotes of statutes or pithy court opinions. (emergency use only) That may not be a good tactic; depends largely on the professor; some that I had would not give a good grade for a paper that had large block quotations. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-girl-who-just-finished-law-school/496422/55 "2009-05-24T08:36:13Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Edited to Add: the below is in reference to **Spoons** post. > > What is “a foreign factual element?” > > Hm. I hope I’m not sounding utterly ignorant but are Canadian provinces far less sovereign with respect to each other than U.S. states? In US it isn’t normally complicated deciding who has jurisdiction over a situation involving multiple states. I mean, its a little complicated, but not so much to require a semester-long course. > > It would be a very rare circumstance to be in the court of one state, applying the law of another state. If it happened, it would largely be an entirely voluntary undertaking on the Court’s part, motivated by both comity and a strong public policy justification. “Foreign factual element” would typically be a contract in a foreign jurisdiction, or some action relating to a contract; something in the family law field, like a marriage, divorce or adoption; and in some cases the facts underlying a possible tort action. Suppose, for example, that A has a tort claim against B, which arose in the Republic of Freedonia, but B has moved to the Kingdom of Libertaria, and A sues B there. Do the courts of Libertaria have personal jurisdiction over B? If so, will the Libertaria courts entertain a tort action which arose in Freedonia? If they don’t, does that mean A lacks any way to bring his action against B, since B is no longer resident in Freedonia? With respect to your question about the power of the Canadian provinces, it’s not a question of the respective powers of the provinces, but the approach to conflicts taken by the English and Canadian courts in general. The English courts treated all jurisdictions outside England and Wales as a foreign court - even if that jurisdiction was another part of the British Empire. So a case with foreign elements arising in France would be treated by the English courts in the same way as a case arising from Ontario, even though Ontario was part of the British Empire. The Canadian courts took the same approach, treating a case with factual elements arising from another Canadian province as a foreign court, just as if it had arisen in Outer Mongolia. The Supreme Court of Canada has altered that approach in the past fifteen years, in the area of the enforcement of judgments from one Canadian province in another Canadian province, but in other areas, the same analysis is used to determine which law should be applied. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-girl-who-just-finished-law-school/496422/56 "2009-05-24T14:20:53Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > That may not be a good tactic; depends largely on the professor; some that I had would not give a good grade for a paper that had large block quotations. Very true. Truly, “emergency use only” – the benefit of handing the paper in on time/at page limit exceeds the danger of the use of large quotes. A slightly more subtle approach is to use large quotes in your footnotes as explanatory parentheticals. The really cheap fluffing tactic to be avoided is using multiple page-sized graphs or charts. Even _I_ think that looks rinky-dink. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-girl-who-just-finished-law-school/496422/57 "2009-05-24T17:26:51Z")
First of all, thanks to **Northern Piper** for answering the question better and more briefly than I could. **Hello Again** , if you like, I’ll dig into my notes and find a typical Conflict of Laws problem that we would have discussed in class, if you’d like to see the kind of questions we’re up against here. I do have a question though. Upthread, you mentioned that you’re headed into the bar exam, which you will write at the end of July. If you pass it (and I hope you do–good luck!), what happens next? Do you become a licensed and accredited lawyer immediately? Is there any articling or apprenticeship program that you must complete in addition to the bar exam? ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-girl-who-just-finished-law-school/496422/58 "2009-05-24T17:52:07Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > I do have a question though. Upthread, you mentioned that you’re headed into the bar exam, which you will write at the end of July. If you pass it (and I hope you do–good luck!), what happens next? Do you become a licensed and accredited lawyer immediately? Is there any articling or apprenticeship program that you must complete in addition to the bar exam? The next thing that happens, in New York, is that you seek admission to the Bar. In some states, you sort of “pre-approve” so that by the time you site for the exam, you know if you meet the qualifications or not. Not the case in New York. Admission in New York is a complicated and at times lengthy process; Bar exam scores come back in November and mid-January is the earliest I have heard of anyone being admitted. (Bearing in mind that those with jobs started them in September!) The most complicated part deals with “character & fitness to practice law” and involves, among other tasks, submitting affadavits from every past legal employer that you are fit to practice law in their opinion. This is a major drag for people who worked as paralegals for years before law school. You can practice law provisionally once you have passed the exam (the exact breakdown of what is permitted and not is something I’m not clear on). But you cannot go on the record in court unsupervised and some other things until you are admitted. Once you are admitted you are an attorney in your state, licensed to practice there, and, to some degree, the Federal district court (they can set different requirements from the state if they choose). There is no required apprenticeship. Clinical programs and externships are recommended while in law school, and clerking for a judge is a very attractive option post graduation (very competitive right now, even for minor state courts). Most graduates have some combination of clinics, skills programs, summer jobs, externships and volunteer work. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-girl-who-just-finished-law-school/496422/59 "2009-05-24T18:05:40Z")
The NY Bar Exam is something I myself might take someday. But I am disturbed at the fact the mere fact of passing the Bar allows you to practice, pupilage IMO is the best training. ---
**Author:** ![bathsheba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@bathsheba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bathsheba)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-girl-who-just-finished-law-school/496422/60 "2009-05-24T23:06:27Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > That may not be a good tactic; depends largely on the professor; some that I had would not give a good grade for a paper that had large block quotations. This particular guy (a barrister) asked us not to do it, yet in a paper he wrote I see slabs of case law quoted. They seem relevant slabs though. My guess is, quality, not quantity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-girl-who-just-finished-law-school/496422.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-girl-who-just-finished-law-school/496422.md?page=4)