# Ask The Gora Sikh **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 3, 2005, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gora-sikh/329354 "2005-11-03T21:23:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gora-sikh/329354/21 "2005-11-03T23:26:26Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Heh, can’t speak for the OP, but people are always telling me to watch those movies like Missippi Masala and Bend it Like Beckham. No thank you, I don’t want to watch them. I lived through that “women-are-less-than-men” stereotype and the overprotectiveness - why would I want to watch it in a movie? 🙂 Because Jonathan Rhys-Meyers is hot. Actually, the whole cast is hot. I’d almost switch teams for Keira Knightley or Parminder Nagra. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gora-sikh/329354/22 "2005-11-03T23:32:15Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Punjab is a state, please. Punjabi is the word you are looking for. Punjabi Sikhs vs. American Sikhs. You wouldn’t say “America Sikhs”. Obviously that was a typo anaamika. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gora-sikh/329354/23 "2005-11-03T23:44:46Z")
> [@mojave66](#): > > OK, you got me on this, all I can plead is that I’m trying to keep it short. > > I’ll answer the question better, to start with. > > First off, I am by no means an expert on Punjabi culture, so take anything I say about that commmunity with a boulder of salt. That being said, I have noted that the folks who are more traditional in gender roles tend to be older Punjabi immigrants. Now mind you, women following the men probably doesn’t really say anything more than you’d rather chat with your buddies, male or female, than with your spouses at that particular time. I also know that Punjabi Sikh women _and men_ who are very proud of their heritage and that our religion was the first to proclaim women as complete equals, no ifs, ands or buts. I honestly don’t think the Punjabi community here has any more problem with sexism than any other culture, and given their religious beliefs, probably has less. Daughters are as encouraged as the sons to get an education and find a good job. I also know there is some tensions around marriage, and that most families would prefer their children marry another Sikh-- but that’s no different from any other culture, really. > > Thing is, I don’t really have a “my” kind of Sikh since there aren’t even enough obese white trash lesbian Sikhs with tattoos to be contingent #492 in the San Francisco GLBT Pride Parade. I’ve met plenty of queer Sikhs, mainly South Asian but a few gora, and I’ve met plenty of straight gora Sikhs. > > In all seriousness, I really shouldn’t mouth off one way or another about Punjabi Sikh culture, that is right stupid of me. I do know this-- I love reading the Guru Granth Sahib. I love this religion. I love my Sikh cyber-sangat, which has a great mix of people from all walks of life. I love talking to random Sikhs I encounter in life, all have welcomed me like a long-lost family member. All Sikhs are my Sikhs; all humans are my brothers and sisters. It is up to me to get over my own petty judgements, prejudices and stupidities. Thanks for clarifying. By using the term “traditional” it sounded like that was what they (Sikhs) believed. But it sounds more like a cultural issue than a religious one. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gora-sikh/329354/24 "2005-11-03T23:51:42Z")
> [@Brynda](#): > > Most people like seeing things or characters in movies that they can relate to, especially when the characters triumph over stuggles that they might have faced. YMMV. I don’t, I guess…my choice of movies tend to be action or comedy, anyway. I like my books deep and movies shallow. 🙂 **Kalhoun** , thanks for correcting me. Just a personal little thing for me. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gora-sikh/329354/25 "2005-11-04T00:49:54Z")
What is 3HO? Does Sikhism have dietary restrictions? Is there any kind of general agreement on the nature of God? How explicit does a passage in the Granth have to be to be recognized as applying to a situation? Is there a tradition of extrapolation, or is it strict literalism? ---
**Author:** ![tarragon918](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d26b3c/32.png) [@tarragon918](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tarragon918)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gora-sikh/329354/26 "2005-11-04T02:46:05Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > What is 3HO? > > Does Sikhism have dietary restrictions? Is there any kind of general agreement on the nature of God? How explicit does a passage in the Granth have to be to be recognized as applying to a situation? Is there a tradition of extrapolation, or is it strict literalism? Wow - I’ll try to tackle the first question, if **Mojave66** doesn’t mind. 🙂 Never thought I’d see it on SDMB either, btw, even though I asked about it a while ago. 3HO stands for Healthy Happy Holy Organization (3 Hs and and O, see?). It was founded in 1969 by Yogi Bhajan, who came to the US (via Canada) in late 1968. YB began as a yoga teacher (Kundalini yoga), but gradually introduced his religion, Sikhism, to his students. I know this because I was a student and was in 3HO for a while in the 70s–during that time I was also a practicing Sikh. I don’t know that I should say much more about 3HO, which I did make a break with in 1977–but it also involved me leaving the Sikh faith behind. Pretty much my only connection with Sikhism was through 3HO, and unfortunately I just wasn’t that comfortable with the Punjabi Sikh community, although I did from time to time attend Indian Sikh Gurudwaras. The 3HO Sikhs are practicing lacto-vegetarians (they eat dairy but not eggs); many (but not all) are also Khalsa and have taken Amrit. It is still unclear to me if vegetarianism is a requirement, although tobacco and alcohol use are discouraged. I would like to point out that women are still not allowed to do Seva in the Golden Temple, which is probably the holiest site of the Sikh faith (the equivalent of St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome to Catholicism is probably the nearest comparison). That’s being worked on, however. 🙂 I am glad you started this thread, **Mojave66** - thanks! There is much that I learned and hopefully was able to take with me from my time as a Sikh–and much that I still am seeking. I especially miss listening to kirtan; this topic has made me think of going to a gurudwara again. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gora-sikh/329354/27 "2005-11-04T05:43:00Z")
Bend it Like Beckham is actually a comedy, and I assure you women are in no way shape or form subordinated in that movie. I just mentioned it because the family is obviously Sikh, and there is some underlying tension between younger practitioners and older traditions. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gora-sikh/329354/28 "2005-11-04T05:47:30Z")
What factors favour Gora Sikhism becoming trendy, and what factors work against this? ---
**Author:** ![mojave66](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mojave66](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mojave66)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gora-sikh/329354/29 "2005-11-04T06:51:27Z")
No problem at all, Tarragon. Feel free to answer any question here! > [@](#): > > Does Sikhism have dietary restrictions? No, although langar (a kitchen in a gurdwara that will feed anyone who comes to it) only cooks vegetarian food so that anyone can eat there. There are many Sikhs who _do_ only eat vegetarian. The only restriction is that you can’t eat meat that has been slaughtered by religious ritual-- technically, the Sikh religion is anti-ritual although over the years they’ve developed a few of 'em themselves. But the bottom line is that Sikhs are to refrain from eating Halal or Kosher meat. However, some just want to eat meat that uses the most humane methods of life and slaughter, regardless of ritual. > [@](#): > > Is there any kind of general agreement on the nature of God? The Mool Mantar (the first verse of the Sri Granth Guru Sahib) sums it all up nicely, keeping in mind that Punjabi to English translation is tricky enough but since the SGGS is written as poetry it just makes it that much trickier. One God, truth is his/her(\*) name. S/he is the Creator. S/he has no fear. S/he has no hatred. S/he is timeless and without form. S/he is the enlightened one, is beyond birth and death. S/he can be known through the Guru’s(\*\*) grace. - Later it is written that God has gender but is neither male nor female. I like to think God as genderqueer, although that’s probably a rather radical reading of the text. 😃 \*\* The Guru meaning Waheguru (ie God, the True Guru) him/herself. Again, my own extremely humble reading of this is that Waheguru can only be experienced subjectively, never discovered objectively-- ie, s/he is beyond the external senses. > [@](#): > > How explicit does a passage in the Granth have to be to be recognized as applying to a situation? Is there a tradition of extrapolation, or is it strict literalism? Hoo boy. Let me reiterate that I am a very much the novice student of the Granth, and that I have only read the English translations-- there is much more richness to it in the original Punjabi, and again-- it is poetry. It would be like taking Rumi strictly literally. However there are some very explicit passages saying Sikhs should be householders, should contribute money to charity, should do voluntary service for the community, and should refrain from intoxicants and tobacco. There are also explicit passages that make it clear that all humans are equal and worthy of Waheguru’s grace, you should always be learning something, and that there is no one “true” path-- if you are Christian or Muslim or Hindu then be good Christians, Muslims or Hindus. A good example of “extrapolation” is a discussion I was involved in that concluded that athiests should be good humanists, it’s essentially the same path! That’s the other thing I love about Sikhism, since there is so little literalism and no one has the authority to hand down strict interpretations, there are wonderfully endless discussions about what it all means and no right or wrong answers to any of it. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gora-sikh/329354/30 "2005-11-04T10:38:56Z")
So, being an atheist, I have a hard time with some of this…bear with me, please. Do you “worship” your god? Or do you simply understand that there’s something out there and leave it at that? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gora-sikh/329354/31 "2005-11-04T15:17:54Z")
> [@adam yax](#): > > I have heard that Sikhs are not supposed to cut their hair, is that true? I can’t imagine it is, unless you keep getting bigger turbans over time. Sikhs are not supposed to cut their hair, _any_ of their hair, on any part of their bodies. This applies equally to men and women. > [@](#): > > I have also heard that the turban isn’t supposed to come off other than for bathing, is it worn to bed? My understanding is that, strictly speaking, the turban is not mandatory > [@](#): > > Who are the Sikh extremists fighting against? They are fighting against the Indian government. They want an independent state. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gora-sikh/329354/32 "2005-11-04T15:24:16Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Sikhs are not supposed to cut their hair, _any_ of their hair, on any part of their bodies. This applies equally to men and women. I should add: _ever_. I should also add that there are growing numbers of Sikhs who are choosing not to strictly follow this rule. Many young Sikh women, for example, shave their legs, arms, and armpits. > [@](#): > > They are fighting against the Indian government. They want an independent state. I should put that in the past tense. They _were_ fighting against the Indian government. The Panjab police force has managed to eliminate almost all the extremists in quasi-legal raids and shootouts. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gora-sikh/329354/33 "2005-11-04T16:57:05Z")
If someone is named Singh, can you assume they are probably Sikh? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gora-sikh/329354/34 "2005-11-04T17:33:44Z")
> [@Sal Ammoniac](#): > > If someone is named Singh, can you assume they are probably Sikh? Maybe. There are plenty of Indians who have the family name “Singh” or “Sinha” who are not Sikh, but the ones you are likely to encounter most often usually are. You can safely assume, though, that a man who doesn’t have “Singh” somewhere in his name (it can be used as a middle name instead of as a last name by Sikhs) is most probably _not_ Sikh. ---
**Author:** ![mojave66](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mojave66](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mojave66)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gora-sikh/329354/35 "2005-11-04T18:08:07Z")
I have a midterm in approximately 2 minutes, then I’ll be at a conference this weekend. I’ll answer questions when I return. In the meantime, all thanks to Ascenra for answering! ---
**Author:** ![mojave66](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mojave66](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mojave66)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gora-sikh/329354/36 "2005-11-04T18:09:13Z")
(Sorry, make that AscenraY…) ---
**Author:** ![tarragon918](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d26b3c/32.png) [@tarragon918](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tarragon918)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gora-sikh/329354/37 "2005-11-04T19:34:19Z")
re Uncut hair…If a Sikh has taken Amrit (the baptism ceremony), yes, they are bound to keep the 5 Ks. 3HO women wear turbans (dastaar), similar to the males; most Punjabi Sikh women do not, they simply wear a scarf called a chuni over their head. There’s been discussion regarding facial hair on women and if it could possibly be removed–imho, an Amritdhari Sikh would not shave/cut or otherwise remove it. For me personally, I don’t think I could stand not shaving under my arms! To this day, I don’t know how I lived with hairy underarms for nearly 5 years! _laughs_ I’ve never had to shave my legs, though. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gora-sikh/329354/38 "2005-11-04T19:50:32Z")
So what’s the end result if you die a good Sikh? What happens if you’re not/for non Sikhs? ---
**Author:** ![tarragon918](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d26b3c/32.png) [@tarragon918](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tarragon918)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gora-sikh/329354/39 "2005-11-05T14:08:46Z")
> [@Omega Glory](#): > > So what’s the end result if you die a good Sikh? What happens if you’re not/for non Sikhs? Sikhism isn’t the kind of faith that rewards or punishes, at least not from my interpretation. Certainly there are no “consequences” for non-Sikhs, as it’s been pointed out that there is no ONE path, according to their beliefs. It speaks very much on the individual level, imho; it’s hard to explain especially since many westerners have little contact with the actual Sikh faith. The main focus of Gurdwara is Gurbani Kirtan, which is singing (accompanied by harmonium and tabla drums) the rags (poems) written in the Siri Guru Granth Sahib. As unusual as this may sound, many of the shabds (another word for the rags) have remained with me, even nearly thirty years after I left 3HO. I don’t know if this is making -any- sense; like I said, it can be a deeply personal experience. I would venture, though, that the “end” result for a Good Sikh would be to attain oneness with Guru. If you’re really interested, look for a gurdwara near you and go attend a service to see for yourself–the service will be very different from any western religious service you’ve ever attended, though, and afterwards please stay for the Langar (free meal)! ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gora-sikh/329354/40 "2005-11-05T14:45:00Z")
In this area, you’d be hard pressed to even find a synagogue, but thanks for the suggestion. What you’re saying does make sense. Are there any good websites or anything about this faith? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gora-sikh/329354.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-gora-sikh/329354.md?page=3)