# Ask the Grammar Harpy **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 23, 2000, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-grammar-harpy/23258 "2000-06-23T00:11:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gatsby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@Gatsby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatsby)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-grammar-harpy/23258/21 "2000-06-23T04:48:04Z")
Kilgore, (BTW, kick-ass user name) I invite you to answer the same question posed to iampunha. ---
**Author:** ![Kilgore\_Trout\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6de8d8/32.png) [@Kilgore\_Trout\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilgore_Trout_1)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-grammar-harpy/23258/22 "2000-06-23T04:53:47Z")
i have three 5s, and two 4s. or would it be the other way around? i have two 5s, and three 4s. oh well. regardless, i have a decent hand. ---
**Author:** ![Kilgore\_Trout\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6de8d8/32.png) [@Kilgore\_Trout\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilgore_Trout_1)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-grammar-harpy/23258/23 "2000-06-23T05:00:57Z")
the closest resource i have is a random house dictionary. it says: **To form the plurals of letters or figures add an apostrophe and an s.** one of the examples it gives: **the 1890’s (or 1890s)** so it seems as if both are acceptable, according to random house. this dictionary is about 10 years old. ---
**Author:** ![Gatsby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@Gatsby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatsby)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-grammar-harpy/23258/24 "2000-06-23T05:01:36Z")
And you think that (I think we have determined that this is a matter or style) three 5’s and two 4’s looks worse? That’s cool with me. Just don’t tell me my way is wrong. Also, you seem to be under the impression that apostrophies are only used in contractions. They are also used as possesives and plurals. C’mon, anyone want to throw down over punctuation outside an end quote? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kilgore\_Trout\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6de8d8/32.png) [@Kilgore\_Trout\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilgore_Trout_1)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-grammar-harpy/23258/25 "2000-06-23T05:06:29Z")
they are used in possesives indeed. that is because english used to have a gentive ending. **the farmer’s goat** used to be **the farmeres goat**. we are omitting the **e** , hence the apostrophe. so the only impression i am under is the correct one. and no, other than letters and figures, apostrophes are not used in plurals. any other lessons you want to give me? ---
**Author:** ![Kilgore\_Trout\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6de8d8/32.png) [@Kilgore\_Trout\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilgore_Trout_1)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-grammar-harpy/23258/26 "2000-06-23T05:07:53Z")
genitive, rather. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-grammar-harpy/23258/27 "2000-06-23T05:08:15Z")
Punha – 1. What you said! 2. Yeah! 3. The plural for “virus” is “viri.” The correct plural is used as often as “stadia.” The media usually get “media” right, but not always. 4. Bear in mind, mine are rules for postings. Real grammar it’s not. 5. Excellent method. Similar to my way to keep track of “I” vs “me.” Leave out the other party, ie: “Tom and I/me went to the party.” “I went to the party” makes sense. “Me went to the party” is obviously wrong. Gatsby – 1. Strunk and White say that you cannot put the punctuation outside of the quotes. They are wrong. There are many times when clarity is destroyed by an internal punctuation mark. 2. The rule of thumb is this: Spell out the number if it is less than or equal to one hundred. Use the numeral if it is more, unless it is the first word in the sentence. Catrandom – 1. It is easier if you spell it “Ps and Qs,” separating the pluralizing “s” by capitalizing the letter in question. 2. It is correctly spelt as “dos and don’ts,” which gets us past your confusion. However, my last name is “Warns” and I have always hated pronouncing the plural possesive “Warnses’”. Warns-es-es? I either go with “Warns-es” and let the possession work itself out through context or add “-es” a few extra times. I have a gripe, though. I do not expect correct grammar from radio or TV newspeople when they are winging it, as we know they are all idiots. But what has happened to copy editors? When I was in journalism school we were taught to worship editors since they knew all and saw all, grammatically. They have now entered the world of media idiots. They couldn’t assemble a grammatic sentence if their lives depended on it. Sad. ---
**Author:** ![Gatsby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@Gatsby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatsby)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-grammar-harpy/23258/28 "2000-06-23T06:00:27Z")
Listen, Kilgore, I wasn’t trying to be condescending. I’m all for you spelling PC’s however you like. [Look.](http://webster.commnet.edu/HP/pages/darling/grammar.htm) > [@](#): > > An apostrophe is also used to form some plurals, especially the plural of letters and digits. Raoul got four A’s last term and his sister got four 6’s in the Olympic ice-skating competition. It is no longer considered necessary or even correct to create the plural of years or decades or abbreviations with an apostrophe. He wrote several novels during the 1930s. There are fifteen PhDs on our faculty. My sister and I have identical IQs. (If you wrote Ph.D. with periods, you would add an apostrophe before the pluralizing “s”: Ph.D.'s) If the abbreviation ends in “S,” it’s a good idea to separate this final “S” from the pluralizing “s” with an apostrophe: SOS’s “No longer considered necessary or even correct to create the plural of years or decades or **abbreviations** with an apostrophe.”. But not improper. That’s all. Style. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-grammar-harpy/23258/29 "2000-06-23T06:09:15Z")
Dear **Grammar Harpy** , I suppose this is really more of a Linguistics question than a Grammar question, but maybe you know the answer after all. How many words are there in the phrase “a whole nother”? ---
**Author:** ![Baglady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Baglady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baglady)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-grammar-harpy/23258/30 "2000-06-23T06:10:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > As far as I see it, you use apostrophes in plurals for such entities as letters, numbers and acronyms. > \*\* Oh noooo… I once read a grammar tip book that said this, and I have to disagree. General rule of thumb is to use apostrophes only for possessives (for example, Jane’s book), and for concatenated words (for example, don’t, wouldn’t). Otherwise, we’d have things like: “I have two TV’s at my house.” “There are dozen’s of donuts” “There are 100’s of toilet seats” As for letters, the only one I can think of off the top of my head is A’s, as in the Oakland Athletics baseball game. But then the apostrophe denotes the “thletic” that has been omitted. An **EXCELLENT** resource for grammarians and those who aspire to be, is Richard Lederer’s “[Sleeping Dogs Don’t Lay: Practical Advice for the Grammatically Challenged](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312203632).” Mr. Lederer makes grammar both fun and punny. It’s a GREAT read. ---
**Author:** ![Gatsby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@Gatsby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatsby)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-grammar-harpy/23258/31 "2000-06-23T06:26:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Otherwise, we’d have things like: > > “I have two TV’s at my house.” > “There are dozen’s of donuts” > “There are 100’s of toilet seats” I see TV’s and 100’s as more appealing (esthetically) than TVs and 100s. Dozen’s is way out in left field… ---
**Author:** ![Baglady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Baglady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baglady)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-grammar-harpy/23258/32 "2000-06-23T06:30:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > I see TV’s and 100’s as more appealing (esthetically) than TVs and 100s. > \*\* :cough cough: That would be “aesthetically,” dahlink. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-grammar-harpy/23258/33 "2000-06-23T06:34:12Z")
I quote the Oxford Companion to the English Language, Oxford Univ. Press (of course): “There was formerly a respectable tradition (17-19c) of using the apostrophe (I am going to use “apos” from now on, please ignore typos, I am not used to typing this much w/o a spellchecker) for noun plurals, especially for loanwords ending in a vowel…and in the consonants s,z,ch,sh (as in waltz’s…) Although that practice is rare in 20c standard usage, the apos of plurality continues in at least five areas: (1) With abbrev. such as V.I.P.'s or VIP’s, although forms such as VIPs are now widespread. (2) With letters of the alphabet, as in “his i’s…” and “dot your i’s…”. In the phrase “do’s and don’ts” the apos occurs in the first word but not the second, which has the apos of ommission: by and large, the use of two apos close together is avoided. (3) In decade dates, such as “the 1980’s” although such apos-free forms as “the 1980s” are widespread, as are such trucations as “the '80s”, the form “the '80’s” being unlikely. (4) In family names, especially if they end in -s, as in “keeping up with the Jones’s”, as opposed to “the Joneses”, a form that is also common. (5) In the nonstandard (‘illiterate’) use…” When the OED speaks, that is final, folks. ---
**Author:** ![Gatsby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@Gatsby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatsby)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-grammar-harpy/23258/34 "2000-06-23T06:46:47Z")
Baglady: > [@](#): > > :cough cough: > > That would be “aesthetically,” dahlink. 😉 Please look [here](http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=esthetically) to figure out that not everything is absolute. Sometimes there _are_ two right answers. esthetically adv : in a tasteful way; “this building is aesthetically very pleasing” [syn: aesthetically] ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-grammar-harpy/23258/35 "2000-06-23T07:20:56Z")
That’s a whole 'nother ball game. Or a whole other ball game. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-grammar-harpy/23258/36 "2000-06-23T13:03:33Z")
Hehe, I think I’m just going to let you all run with that apostrophe issue - you seem to be doing a good job 😉 > [@](#): > > How many words are there in the phrase “a whole nother”? I like matt’s answer here. The bottom line is that “nother” is not a grammatical word. Clearly this is an attempt to make “another” more emphatic, and as matt points out, “a whole other” is technically correct. My theory is that this requires one to execute something approaching a glottal stop, which is uncomfortable and sounds yucky (just ask the French), so people tend to add the “n” back in. I really like the solution of “A whole 'nother.” ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-grammar-harpy/23258/37 "2000-06-23T13:08:44Z")
I also want to cite this rule, from the [Snopes board](http://161.58.238.106/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000645.html). I think it is accurate. > [@](#): > > tdn’s Rule of Grammar: > It is impossible to write a post criticizing grammar or spelling without making a grammar or spelling error yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Cynical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@Mr.Cynical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Cynical)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-grammar-harpy/23258/38 "2000-06-23T13:09:07Z")
It’s and its. Explain the difference and cite references. Please make this easily understandable, as I have been battling it for years. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-grammar-harpy/23258/39 "2000-06-23T13:49:34Z")
Well, I don’t know about “a whole 'nother.” It seems to me that if that would only be as correct as “a whole another,” which just reeks of redundancy, so much so that I doubt anyone would ever accept it, even in speech. My theory is that, after hearing “another object” for so long, anyone who doesn’t read much might naturally assume that “nother” is an adjective, meaning roughly “different,” and begin using it as such. I get the impression that “nother” is a formation of “another,” rather than of “other.” ---
**Author:** ![missbunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/76d3ee/32.png) [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2000, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-grammar-harpy/23258/40 "2000-06-23T14:28:46Z")
There are zillions of references. Try _The Little Brown Handbook_, Fifth Edition, pp. 424 and 758. **It’s** is a contraction for **it is** : It’s not the heat, it’s the humidity [same meaning as “It is not the heat, it is the humidity.”] If you screw up, it’s your fault. _Its_ is a possessive pronoun. It is NEVER short for “it is.” Contrast these sentences using the possessive: “His bark is worse than his bite” vs. “Its bark is worse than its bite.” “My leg is broken” vs. I have a table - its leg is broken." It is very simple; if you can make the **it’s** into **it is** , then you use the apostrophe. If you could substitute some other possessive pronoun for “its,” then you don’t use the apostrophe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-grammar-harpy/23258.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-grammar-harpy/23258.md?page=3)