SB, I think you’ve misread what many of us have been saying.
The point that has been made, repetitively, is that the goal is not (or at least IMHO should not be) merely to lose weight. That’s just the first step of achieving the goal. The goal is to (or should, IMHO) be healthier and to feel better for the rest of your life, which usually includes some element of long term maintained weight loss with good nutritional habits and improved fitness. Nothing wrong with a quick weight loss starting off using a non-sustainable method, if it can be done, which is uncommon (unless failure to meet that weight loss goal frustrates someone into giving up) but losing the weight is relatively the easy part. Lots of people succeed in doing that, many of them many times. Developing the long term habits that work and that are sustainable – that’s the challenge that fewer meet. And from a health perspective doing that with even only 5 to 10% of body weight loss matters much more than losing more weight. Yet what happens to many is that they set a weight loss goal, not a health and fitness goal, an unrealistic weight loss goal, they then get frustrated when they fail to meet that, quit, and they never get around to phase two, the part that really matters.
I for one am merely encouraging you to look beyond the scale.
stoplight to be fair, from what I can gather this experience has not made SB angry, uncomfortable, and uneasy emotionally and mentally… he was already that way. But losing weight and becoming more fit has not made him any less angry, uncomfortable, and uneasy emotionally and mentally. Any physical improvement has been too gradual and too up and down for him to be aware of.
The good news now is that he is currently a healthier angry uncomfortable and uneasy man!
SB, I think you’ve misread what many of us have been saying.
The point that has been made, repetitively, is that the goal is not (or at least IMHO should not be) merely to lose weight. That’s just the first step of achieving the goal. The goal is to (or should, IMHO) be healthier and to feel better for the rest of your life, which usually includes some element of long term maintained weight loss with good nutritional habits and improved fitness. Nothing wrong with a quick weight loss starting off using a non-sustainable method, if it can be done, which is uncommon (unless failure to meet that weight loss goal frustrates someone into giving up) but losing the weight is relatively the easy part. Lots of people succeed in doing that, many of them many times. Developing the long term habits that work and that are sustainable – that’s the challenge that fewer meet. And from a health perspective doing that with even only 5 to 10% of body weight loss matters much more than losing more weight. Yet what happens to many is that they set a weight loss goal, not a health and fitness goal, an unrealistic weight loss goal, they then get frustrated when they fail to meet that, quit, and they never get around to phase two, the part that really matters.
I for one am merely encouraging you to look beyond the scale.
stoplight to be fair, from what I can gather this experience has not made SB angry, uncomfortable, and uneasy emotionally and mentally… he was already that way. But losing weight and becoming more fit has not made him any less angry, uncomfortable, and uneasy emotionally and mentally. Any physical improvement has been too gradual and too up and down for him to be aware of.
The good news now is that he is currently a healthier angry uncomfortable and uneasy man!
[quote]
If I might add and this is solely based on my experience with others and myself. Losing weight is just one aspect of the entire experience. Exploring problematic emotional and cognitive concerns or perceptions will help to define and establish a healthy foundation to rely on when ongoing weight loss is challenged and challenged it will be. As they say…Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option.
I take about a week break every 4 months or so and indulge in the stuff I’ve been restricted from. And I don’t recall feeling any differently psychologically then. Actually, the really positive feelings I used to get from low carbing have largely been absent - I do feel better than what I eat high carbs, but barely. I actually experimented last week by having one big indulgent meal in the middle of the week. In the past this had disrupted the feeling invincible sort of feeling I’d get from eating low carbs, but this time around oddly enough it wasn’t really a noticeable disruption at all. Which I conclude means I’m not really receiving all the benefits of low carbing, either because I’m eating too much carbs or I’m not exercising enough or both.
I perhaps give a false impression about just how angry about all of this I am. Most of the time I’m indifferent. It’s a minor pain in the ass to continue this lifestyle, but it’s not that big a deal. I’m frustrated that I can’t seem to speed up my progress. I had some frustration specifically in regards to this thread with a distorted memory of how people were arguing against me, and that sort of spilled out into my general hostility.
I also have a weird complicating factor that I don’t really want to go into too much detail, but the exercise was actually having a significant negative affect on my life. Essentially, it was sort of ramping up the intensity of all my feelings, and some of them were things I haven’t had to deal with to that degree in a long while and it’s actually a significant disruption in my life. The net effect of exercising has been to add a psychological toll that makes the whole process even more difficult.
I understand that I’m really weird. I mean, when I lost all that weight in the first place, and I started looking good and feeling good and got a lot of positive social attention it actually made me feel more depressed for reasons I mentioned upthread. I realize that’s an abnormal and probably unhealthy reaction. But imagine now - I’m having some of those same sort of resentful feelings, except that I don’t even have the accomplishment and progress to look upon. I realize that 70 pounds seems like a success, but the timetable and effort I’ve put into it make it feel like at least partially a failure. So oddly enough, I’m both resentful about any life changes related to losing weight while also being frustrated and disappointed in my failure not to lose enough of it.
Maybe I’m crazy. I’m just not getting any positive feelings out of this whole thing.
Serious question: do you think you might be depressed and if so, have you considered seeking treatment for it? Completely aside from the weight loss thing, some of the things you’ve said in this thread (I’m resentful, I’m unhappy, positive attention makes it worse, nothing much seems to make it better) sound a lot like the way I felt when I was suffering from severe untreated clinical depression. Just thought I’d throw that out there.
I think one of the things we’re going to learn from people who’ve lost very large amounts of weight is that those fat cells store a lot more than just fat. Estrogen, for instance, is fat soluble. Burning through the fat stored away is going to dump a lot of estrogen into a person’s system. Fat cells talk to bone cells. I’m sure they talk to every other type of cell in the body, but we just haven’t identified the hormones involved.
And, honestly, SenorBeef, I don’t think your reaction is abnormal at all. If your value as a human being to others suddenly skyrockets because you weigh less, isn’t that a confirmation of all that is shallow and hateful in humanity? But, I do second the other suggestions that you check to see if you’re clinically depressed and consider some talk therapy.
SB wrote
I understand that I’m really weird. I mean, when** I lost all that weight in the first place, and I started looking good and feeling good and got a lot of positive social attention it actually made me feel more depressed for reasons I mentioned upthread.** I realize that’s an abnormal and probably unhealthy reaction. But imagine now - I’m having some of those same sort of resentful feelings, except that I don’t even have the accomplishment and progress to look upon. I realize that 70 pounds seems like a success, but the timetable and effort I’ve put into it make it feel like at least partially a failure. So oddly enough, I’m both resentful about any life changes related to losing weight while also being frustrated and disappointed in my failure not to lose enough of it.
I have been in your shoes and understand exactly what you are saying. I hope what I say helps in some small way.
Above in bold pay attention to what you have written. You stated looking good and feeling good got you a lot of positive social attention. Perhaps what you have overlooked is your demeanor changed because of the weight loss and people responded in kind. The easy step is to build resentment towards those who appear to be shallow while responding to your now socially acceptable physical frame. The hard step is realizing it has nothing to do with them, they are only responding to your new positive ?looking good outlook" and physique. I would kindly suggest that it is you who grew uncomfortable with yourself. I did the same.
The resentment, uncomfortableness, anger, frustration or whatever words you use to describe your state of mind are the doors waiting to be opened by you and only you. Many trained professionals have gone through similar doors and can guide you through your process. It is not easy, nor will it be fun but to heal, to be finally free of those burdens you carry it must be done.
I say this last part in realistic terms. A choice will be made by you to either go forward, maintain, slide back or give up. Whatever that decision might be, be honest with yourself and accept the outcome of the choice you make, accept yourself!!
I agree also with some who suggested depression might be an issue. Perhaps time for check up.
Yes, that’s pretty much it. Certainly it hasn’t been a factor this time - the change hasn’t been nearly as dramatic (270s is still well into fatties territory), and as you get older it matters less. It’s really just sort of leftover feelings from the last time that make me feel that way about it.
I have a biased view, so it’s understandable if you think I’m not seeing the situation clearly, but no, I don’t think it was a new positive attitude that made people treat me differently. There wasn’t really a new, positive attitude - if anything I was more generally hostile to random people after rather than before. It didn’t boost up my ego or my confidence or anything like that - because I didn’t base my self worth around my weight. I’m pretty confident it wasn’t some newfound attitude that changed the way people react to me.
I don’t think there’s any way to cure me of my weird reaction to this. I just need to get over it. What principle am I fighting for, exactly? What am I going to win? It’s unproductive. But I don’t really care about this whole thing one way or another much anymore - the weight, the way people react to it - and so it’s hard to work up any motivation towards a difficult task. When working towards that difficult task actually makes me feel worse rather than better, all the more difficult.
Been there, done that. You seem stubborn to the point of absurdity on this issue so I’m not expecting you to have some sort of epiphany, but here’s the context.
When have I lost substantial weight in the past, and people congratulated me I was not all that “Yay Me” when receiving compliments. I was always polite, but it made me slightly uncomfortable. Up until I gained my targeted weight I would say. “Thanks, but I still have a long way to go” and drop it. Being congratulated let me know in no uncertain terms what a tub I had been relative to my more slender weight. It’s like being congratulated for pulling yourself back from some sort of moral collapse. People mean well, but it can be annoying on some level.
Objectively I realize this this is crazy talk and people were just trying to be helpful in giving “attaboys”, but attaboys for losing weight are difficult to digest in that you have ridden the weight swings back and forth, and you realize intuitively it’s probably only a matter of time till the pounds pile back on and you will have failed again. This may or may not happen, but you need to separate the goodwill in congratulating you from the larger meta context of what goes through your head when someone notices you have lost weight and comments on it to you.
You are here and now. Success is in the present, if you dwell on the inevitable relapse and failure that is surely to come at some point all you are creating is a self fulfilling prophecy. Focus on the present context, stop living in fear and resentment of your anticipated future failure.
I don’t really want to go in too deep into that aspect of this whole thing, but it’s way, way more of an issue than what you’re describing. I had a really really shitty childhood where this played a big role and it damages me to this day. It’s way more than just people doing what you say, it’s going from rather horrific emotional abuse to treating me like I’m human.
I recognize that logical discussion is a poor way to deal with the irrational hopelessness that is chronic depression but what the hell …
SB, you had a horrible childhood and you were emotionally abused during it. The focus of that abuse happened to be your weight a large part of the time. Seriously, I feel for you. The impression you give is that you were both emotionally abused by your parents and bullied.
Your weight as a child however did not cause the abuse. The abusers caused the abuse. And abusers find something to abuse about.
As an adult you have discovered that there is prejudice against the obese and that triggers off a host of strong reactions in you, some possibly conflicting ones, as you deal with them and their lack when you were not obese. That is understandable. But what the idiots around you do or do not do does not seem to be that which you want to be that which decides what you do.
I never got a complete answer earlier in the thread: why do you want to lose weight?
It is not to get diferent reactions from those around you. So ignore those.
To prove to yourself that you can do it again?
Out of some very short term health concern fears?
Or perhaps to have somewhat better day to day functioning and a better chance of living healthier longer?
As has been stated here many times, if the latter then the goal is best served by looking beyond the scale, especially at the point you are at now.
The impression that you give is that the only person’s whose approval matters to you now is yourself. Which of course is fine. But don’t be so damn stingy with giving it. Don’t abuse yourself by refusing to allow any circumstance that gives you credit for accomplishing anything. When you set goals that are unreasonable (and the ones you have set are despite the fact that you somehow did the impossible before) that’s what you are doing.
SB wrote
I don’t really want to go in too deep into that aspect of this whole thing, but it’s way, way more of an issue than what you’re describing. I had a really really shitty childhood where this played a big role and it damages me to this day. It’s way more than just people doing what you say, it’s going from rather horrific emotional abuse to treating me like I’m human.
So your attitude toward weight loss dieting, exercising, body image and overall social comfort level is a symptom of abuse, emotional and/or physical you suffered from your parents, siblings, extended family or peer group in total or in part. Got it.
There just seems to be a piece of the puzzle missing for me and knowing what happened to you is not it. It is as if you lead me one direction with your written word but underlying those words is conflict and contradiction taking me in a different direction. That leaves me a bit confused as to what you are attempting to convey and ambivalent as to your state of mind. I am not sure if you are looking for help or looking for a way to dismiss the help offered.
I am not sure he knows himself. Both? Neither? He’s chronically depressed, angry, sad, conflicted … it’s not exactly a rational process.
The people I’ve known in real life in that circumstance are torn between being angry at the world, at people in their path, at people in their past, and angry at themselves. They don’t trust positive messages let alone believe them. They’ve generally seemed like they have an internal chorus of voices going on, many of which are singing dirges, the Blues, and bad country songs, all off-key at the same time. The one voice singing some hopeful melodies is in there, but usually is hard to hear over the cacophony.
Is that him? I don’t know. Wouldn’t presume to make a guess. But clearly there is both a large part of him that is invested in giving himself messages of failure and some portion that believes in himself enough to persevere (and succeed by any reasonable standard) anyway. Again, and really not so tongue in cheek, he is now at least a healthier angry uncomfortable and uneasy man. Fat loss won’t cure his depression (although exercise does help some people some). Healthier is still something. And that part of him that perseveres despite all the negative messaging he gives himself is pretty impressive even if he cannot/will not see it.
Yeah, sorry, I guess I’m all over the place in this thread. My original intention was for it to be a helpful and possibly inspirational “ask the…” thread, and I’d still be happy to answer questions about any specifics. But it also came at a time when I was trying this all again, so I guess with occasional updates about how the experienced changed this time around, it became sort of a diet blog. And then the struggles I’ve had with it have had people probing more deeply to try to figure out my issues.
And if I come off as hostile and dismissive sometimes, I’m sorry. I know almost everyone here is well meaning. It’s a weird, complex issue that I’m struggling with.
It also doesn’t feel like progress in regards to feeling better. Yes, I’m healthier, but I’m mentally taxed by the process, frustrated by how little it actually makes me feel better in any way, etc.
Actually, you mention that the exercise should help with the depression and it has been quite the opposite. Or rather, it depends on how you’re defining depression. One of the problems I’m struggling with now is that I was at a point in my life where I was able to tolerate depression issues well enough - or rather, I wasn’t agonizing over anything. It was just sort of a numb/detached/blah depression. But the exercise actually lifted that numbness. I felt less detached, and all my emotions felt like they had the volume turned up. And I guess if that numbness and detachment was the depression, then exercise did really help to alleviate it. But the problem is - turning the volume up on the emotions works for the positive and the negative, and without getting into specifics, my strongest feelings have always been negative. I’ve been struggling to deal with things that are very distressing to me on a regular basis since I’ve started exercising and I’m not well equipped to handle them.
So I’ve been really conflicted, knowing that going through with this whole thing is what I should do, but not feeling it emotionally at all. Not feeling the need to do it, being satisfied or happy from doing it. And in fact the opposite - the harder I work at it, the more miserable I feel. So I’ve been pushing a vague rational notion against much more immediate and real negative feedback. Hence I’m really struggling with it and don’t really feel good about it at all. It’s only the fact that I made a commitment and I don’t fail to live up to those that I’ve been able to keep pushing through, but it’s making me miserable in the process.
I’m not a psychiatrist and even if I was would never presume to make any conclusion about (or form any pseudo-professional relationship with) anyone from a message board interaction. But I can say that yes, in the treatment of depression the lifting of numbness comes first. It creates a real risk during the successful treatment of depression because the numbness reduced suicide risk and the period when that is less pronounced but some sense of hopelessness and, as you put it, higher volume negative emotions, are persist, increases that risk some, until that starts to resolve as well. Or at least that’s what I was taught years back.
Please promise us that if you develop any thoughts of self-harm that you will minimally call the suicide prevention hot line 1 800 273 TALK (8255) Information about them here.
And please consider giving professional help another try.
Exercise often helps with depression, but I doubt that it’s a universal. And also, as you say, you may have experienced some slight relief due to the exercise (or some other factor) which churned up other difficult emotions/mental states. Depression is a harsh, cruel mistress.
I am familiar with that numb/detached feeling you’re talking about. In some ways it’s a huge relief because at least it’s better than constant misery. But on the other hand, while I was experiencing it, I kept thinking… this can’t be right. I should be feeling something, right?
Ultimately it was the thought that my children deserved a functioning and capable human being as their mother that forced me to go seek out assistance. (And FWIW I had to try several different things before finally finding a combination of stuff that worked for me, and I still struggle sometimes.)
I guess I don’t have much of a point with this, except that I sympathize, you are not alone, and while getting help for this can often be frustrating and difficult and seemingly impossible while you are in the throes of it, it actually is possible.
Well anyway, there’s not anything productive that can be done about that here. I was just trying to convey why in particular it has been a jumbled mess along the way even though it seems like I should be happy.
I wish I could find some stronger emotion to attach to the whole thing, something to drive me. I don’t know, maybe some sort of revenge for instance. Someone who’d wronged me but would somehow be embarrassed or whatever by my improvement, but there’s not really anything like that in my life. Love would do it - if I had someone in my life that accepted me for who I was, I’d want to work on improving myself for them. I’m just not willing to do it as part of getting someone to accept me in the first place. Anger, hatred, I don’t know - all of those things, if I could somehow harness them this way, would drive me way more than some vague notion of health or physical capability would.
There needs to be some sort of strong driving force to push you to do something that’s long and difficult. Most people are motivated just fine by being healthier, being treated better by people, being able to do more stuff, feeling physically better - I’m just not finding those anywhere near sufficient motivators.
FWIW (and I think I speak for several of us here) you are a frustrating and maddening person to deal with in this thread. Your refusal to set reasonable goals and insistence on labelling every success a failure is crazy making. And it is sad to know that you right now see your only choices as being numb or in pain.
But your tenacity in the face of percieved failures, your slogging along even as you bemoan that you have not the sufficient motivation, earns admiration as well. That’s the part that earns respect, not being thinner (or less fat). Suffering is not noble or admirable, but having the character that gets back up from the metaphorical canvas even while believe that you will only get knocked down again and even while you’re not even sure you want that belt anyway, there is something about that gets us rooting for you. Even if you are doofus for not realizing that you are actually winning.
So you have a bit of a (somewhat confused and conflicted) fan club. Deal with it.
I don’t think I’m setting unreasonable goals and I don’t think I’m being irrational about it.
My goal is not to lose weight. My goal is to lose weight in such a way that I feel the time and effort is worthwhile. If it isn’t, as it hasn’t been, then it’s not something I can rationally convince myself to stick with, either to continue the weight loss or to maintain it.
So yes, I’ve been losing weight, and yes, 70 pounds means I got something done, but I didn’t get it done in a way that I find to be satisfying or worthwhile. I’ve only driven myself due to the commitment I made to the goal in the first place (a goal, incidentally, that was made after I took off the first 40 pounds in a few months, which happened quickly enough to indeed be worthwhile). I wouldn’t have committed to the extra 40 knowing how long it would take.
Which is why I’m in a frustrating position. It would be shitty to quit halfway through and undo the progress I’ve made, and yet the progress itself hasn’t been done in a way that strikes me as sustainable in terms of the effort and time put in. So I’m trying to figure out something that works - either more effort/time and more loss, or less effort/time and less loss (but no regain). The current ratio is unacceptable to me.
Now if there’s something in there that’s irrational or illogical, rather than just atypical for the values most people hold, you’ll have to point it out to me.
Yes, we’ve established that you do not think you are setting unreasonable goals. You are plain and simply wrong about that and your having somehow managed to have done the impossible before does not change that. You persist in holding up those goals and being frustrated that they are not met.
We have not quite established why you wanted to lose the weight. Or why you’d want to keep it off once you got it off. Something about some imminent health issue …
We have also established that losing quickly is somehow that which would make it satisfying.
And that you do not see why these things add up to unreasonable and irrational.
What do you expect to accomplish with weight loss? What do you think losing X more pounds in manner that you know is not sustainable for the long term will do for you?
You can’t answer those questions and yet you persist in setting yourself up to fail. You see this as reasonable and rational? I don’t.
To me rational is understanding what I hope to accomplish with a course of action and why. For you weight loss is sure not for vanity’s sake; if anything the responses you get for looking better to others is a problematic issue. That leaves health and function. Aiming for more weight loss, let alone undoable rapid loss, serves that goal poorly. To the degree that health and function is your reason to have lost weight then this is beyond the point to transition into* the harder job*, the keeping weight off with a sustainable long term plan of good nutrition and gradually further increasing fitness.
No the choices are not just quit and go back to old ways and gain the weight back or to keep slogging away at losing more than 20% of your body weight doing things that are, to you, unsustainable.
In a way, maybe it’s unfortunate you were so successful your first time at losing weight. What you did was pretty remarkable and unusual. And most people would like to do it that way. Put in a tremendous effort for a short time vs. moderate effort for a longer time. But most people would not have been able to do that. Now you’re like the rest of us–having to chip away slowly to meet our fitness goals. It’s easy to maintain motivation in the short term, but harder when days turn into months and years.
Maybe it’s time to try some a personal fitness trainer. Perhaps one-on-one or a small group. The trainer can provide motivation when you are struggling.
