# Ask the guy who's just read Lord of the Rings **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 12, 2005, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171 "2005-09-12T01:24:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Caught\_Work](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/919ad9/32.png) [@Caught\_Work](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caught_Work)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/21 "2005-09-12T11:07:34Z")
Why are the names Sauron and Saruman so dang similar? If Gandalf was the Grey, Saruman the White and Radagast the Brown, who was the puce, pink and purple? ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/22 "2005-09-12T11:35:02Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Lord of the Rings is an asexual book. There’s no nooky – the males are too busy wandering around - and smoking - and the females are too busy looking radiant, dishing out gifts – and dusting and vacuuming after the males have laid down large deposits of ash all over the place. There will always be sickos and saddos who are going to read in a homosexual subtext every time a sword is unsheathed or two blokes suck on the same pipe. Same as there will always be those who see a subtler meaning to what Dubya says. “Seek ye not the mysteries ere thou hast grasped the bleeding obvious.” Aye, there are queer folk here abouts. Queerer than most, I reckon. ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/23 "2005-09-12T14:23:49Z")
From the way the Gondor army is marshalled, can you comment on the political and social structure of Gondor and perhaps its demographic make-up? ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/24 "2005-09-12T14:25:27Z")
> [@Caught@Work](#): > > Why are the names Sauron and Saruman so dang similar? Forget these two. How about Algaeleg, 'Alfaleg, 'Alfagill, 'Alfaful, Mouthaful, Araphore and Semaphore? He was taking the piss by the time he moved onto Aragorn’s bunch: Arayawn, Arahead, Araheel, Achilesheel, and his bastard son Arasole. > [@](#): > > If Gandalf was the Grey, Saruman the White and Radagast the Brown, who was the puce, pink and purple? With all his names - The Fool, The Simple, The Bird-tamer - Radagast was clearly trying to compensate for his very small part. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/25 "2005-09-12T15:01:11Z")
I always figured Bombadil was like a retired … whatever those musical dudes that created the universe are called. Not of midle earth and possessed of power far greater than a mere spiritual slave of Morgoth that any of Sauron’s creations would have affected him no more than a charm bracelet out of a Happy Meal. I’m probably wrong though. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/26 "2005-09-12T15:14:21Z")
> [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > I always figured Bombadil was like a retired … whatever those musical dudes that created the universe are called. Not of midle earth and possessed of power far greater than a mere spiritual slave of Morgoth that any of Sauron’s creations would have affected him no more than a charm bracelet out of a Happy Meal. > > I’m probably wrong though. Ainur (singular: Ainu). Yep, almost certainly. It looks like he came to Arda not with any particular purpose in mind but just to live in quasi-mortal form (except for being ageless) and enjoy the place. Sort of a “Maia-without-portfolio”. It was Gandalf’s opinion that if Sauron could conquer enough of the rest of the world then he could hand Bombadil a smacking, but not otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/27 "2005-09-12T15:21:53Z")
I want to know why you think Sam is C.S. Lewis. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/28 "2005-09-12T16:15:43Z")
Hey, even JRRT wouldn’t state that TB was one of the Ainur. He wasn’t sure _where_Bombadil came from. Must’ve been something he was smoking. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/29 "2005-09-12T18:55:50Z")
Next question! Mana tárë antuva nin Ilúvatar enyárë i metta pella, írë Anarinya queluva? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/30 "2005-09-12T19:15:24Z")
Um…42? ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/31 "2005-09-12T19:18:28Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > Next question! Mana tárë antuva nin Ilúvatar enyárë i metta pella, írë Anarinya queluva? Crap. I used to know this one. Hold on, hold on, it’s on the tip of my tongue … ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/32 "2005-09-12T19:29:32Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > Next question! Mana tárë antuva nin Ilúvatar enyárë i metta pella, írë Anarinya queluva? It’s ok! We have meat here in ze building! ---
**Author:** ![Daithi\_Lacha](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daithi_lacha/32/5430_2.png) [@Daithi\_Lacha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daithi_Lacha)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/33 "2005-09-12T19:30:34Z")
> [@Orual](#): > > It’s ok! We have meat here in ze building! “Romans go home?” ---
**Author:** ![Daithi\_Lacha](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daithi_lacha/32/5430_2.png) [@Daithi\_Lacha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daithi_Lacha)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/34 "2005-09-12T19:31:53Z")
> [@Daithi Lacha](#): > > “Romans go home?” Agh! I replied to the wrong one. Y’all knew what I meant, right? Right? ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/35 "2005-09-12T20:25:20Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I want to know why you think Sam is C.S. Lewis. Actually, Lewis’ big deep voice and powerful stride were used for Treebeard. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/36 "2005-09-12T21:32:18Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I want to know why you think Sam is C.S. Lewis. I second that. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/37 "2005-09-13T01:04:28Z")
> [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > Um…42? You know, after pondering awhile about it, I think you’re probably right. ---
**Author:** ![Tenar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@Tenar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenar)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/38 "2005-09-13T01:09:25Z")
What has it got in its pocketses? Okay, so it’s not LOTR. It’s the Hobbit. Close enough. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/39 "2005-09-13T01:25:41Z")
Do you fold down the corners, use a bookmark, lay the open book over, or just remember where you are? ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/40 "2005-09-13T01:47:16Z")
Tolkien says that Lewis didn’t influence him but was a great source of encouragement to him, which is quite a backhanded compliment when you think about it. As you all know, Tollers was around six years Lewis’s senior, and achieved much at an early age. Even a Professorship at Leeds counts for something when achieved in one’s early 30s! Now, of course they both fought in the war, and the affect of that on them cannot be underestimated. Tollers also had a less than ideal childhood. But after the war Tollers had quite an easy path career-wise, and indeed marriage-wise. I think a lot of this closetedness and remoteness from ordinary life comes through in Lord of the Rings. He was a bit like Lord Denning (famous English judge from Hampshire). Denning was a terrific judge in my opinion but he had notorious blindspots that may be traced to the closetedness of his lego-judicial (plus rural) background. Famously, he just couldn’t believe that police beat up suspects, when the whole of the rest of Britain (except the other judges he met at the Atheneum Club or wherever) and its dog knew what went on. Without Lewis - simple. No LOTR. He was the fellow who kept encouraging Tolkien and let him read chapter after chapter at the Inklings’ meetings, even though others must have thought “Oh, my God! not more traipsing through the countryside - let’s listen to and debate some real literature!” Of course, some Inklings thought and said more or less exactly that. And having reread the book, I can sympathise. Tollers wanted “long”, and in the end he got long, though only because of Lewis, I think. I mentioned blindspots earlier. Anyone who could have spent around 30 years in Lewis’s company and not have seen his genius must have one. If it is true indeed that Tolkien wasn’t influenced by Lewis, then more’s the pity. The loss was his. So, that is why as I made my own journey recently, I felt that the relationship between Frodo and Sam was akin in T’s own mind (to which of course I have no access - but it’s fun to speculate) to that between him and Lewis. Of course, Sam is very important to Frodo, but at the end of the day of an entirely different nature. Definitely NOT a leader of men, a higher being. It’s significant that the book ends with Sam saying “Well, I’m back.” Yes, back where he belongs, with the soil. The more I read the book the more I could sense (perhaps wrongly) that Tolkien was investing himself in Frodo, Aragorn and Gandalf. Perhaps, indeed, Treebeard was based on Lewis too, but I’m not so sure. Lewis was loud, yes, but he was certainly not ponderous. That was Tolkien, especially in terms of amount of literary output, meticulousness, etc. After all, it was T who invented three Elvish languages, not Lewis. His fantasy world was kind of tossed together as he went along, as Tolkien noted. I feel the relationship between T and L was quite a complex one (which relationship between two such able men wouldn’t be?), and that there might have been an element of jealousy on T’s side. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171.md?page=3)