# Ask the guy who's just read Lord of the Rings **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 12, 2005, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171 "2005-09-12T01:24:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/101 "2005-10-14T06:48:45Z")
I’ve just started reading The Hobbit with my daughter, and there in the very first chapter is Bilbo offering to share his smokes with Gandalf, remarking that it’s ‘a very fine morning for a pipe of tobacco’. Tolkien also explicitly refers to pipe-weed/Nicotiana as tobacco in his Prologue to Lord of the Rings, as he explains why he’s devoting a section of his Prologue to the topic: ‘since he [Merry] and the tobacco of the Southfarthing play a part in the history that follows, his remarks in the introduction to his _Herblore of the Shire_ may be quoted’. While it must be admitted that Tolkien put the smoking and the beer-drinking in because they were the sort of things he enjoyed doing, it’s often overlooked, in considerations of how relatively widespread the habit was, that smoking was already in England by the 1930s an activity that was the source of much opposition. This led to the creation in many university colleges, for example, of non-smoking areas and special Smoking Rooms. Both University and Magdalen Colleges at Oxford, for example, are mentioned as having Smoking Rooms in C.S. Lewis’s diary, published as _All My Road Before Me_, which covers the years 1922-1927. **Wendell** , I meant to ask you in my previous response, but quite forgot, are you an Oxford man? Did you follow the Clintonian path, perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/102 "2005-10-14T07:06:15Z")
> [@honeydewgrrl](#): > > Why are the terms “men/man” often used (by the elves, in prophecy, etc) as broad representations of the human race…except in the case of who/what is capable of killing the Witch King? Arwen’s comment notwithstanding, the fact that she was a woman had nothing to do with Men not being able harm the Witch King. The book makes it pretty clear that it was the Dunedain blade held by a hobbit that undid the sorceries that held him together, letting Arwen strike a mortal blow. ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/103 "2005-10-14T07:12:39Z")
> [@Cerowyn](#): > > Arwen’s comment notwithstanding, the fact that she was a woman had nothing to do with Men not being able harm the Witch King. The book makes it pretty clear that it was the Dunedain blade held by a hobbit that undid the sorceries that held him together, letting Arwen strike a mortal blow. Arwen? Good gods, Cerowyn. Did you even _read_ the book? Aside from answering a question asked more than a month ago? :o ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/104 "2005-10-14T07:24:21Z")
[QUOTE=Cerowyn] Arwen? Good gods, Cerowyn. Did you even _read_ the book?/QUOTE]We forgive you your lapse. I was even prepared to consider it a typo until you made your confession. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/105 "2005-10-14T09:49:05Z")
::looks at post #81 and wonders what is he, chopped liver?:: ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/106 "2005-10-14T13:08:09Z")
People, people! These prophecies were made in Sindarin, Adunaic, and occasionally Quenya. Those languages were much more gender-specific! Sadly, when JRRT translated them into English, he was stuck with clunky approximations like _Man_ to represent men in specific in some instances, and generic humankind in others. And **Cerowyn**? Sorry to contradict, but it took more than the blade from Arnor to slay the Witch-King. In _Letters_ (IIRC) JRRT wrote more about it, even going on to say that he regretted implying that the Dunedain could work magic or weave spells into blades. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/107 "2005-10-14T13:23:01Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > People, people! These prophecies were made in Sindarin, Adunaic, and occasionally Quenya. Those languages were much more gender-specific! Sadly, when JRRT translated them into English, he was stuck with clunky approximations like _Man_ to represent men in specific in some instances, and generic humankind in others. > > And **Cerowyn**? Sorry to contradict, but it took more than the blade from Arnor to slay the Witch-King. In _Letters_ (IIRC) JRRT wrote more about it, even going on to say that he regretted implying that the Dunedain could work magic or weave spells into blades. Hate being sepearate from my books, but: Wasn’t there a line in the critical passage along the lines of “and that sword forged so long ago unknit whatever spells kept the witchking safe” I know that is not accurate, but I remember a line like that. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/108 "2005-10-14T13:25:52Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > Hate being sepearate from my books, but: > Wasn’t there a line in the critical passage along the lines of “and that sword forged so long ago unknit whatever spells kept the witchking safe” > I know that is not accurate, but I remember a line like that. Yeah, that’s in there. But JRRT later regretted it. He felt the combo of the hobbit/woman attack sufficed to fulfill the prophecy. (I’m going on memory too). ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/109 "2005-10-14T13:29:12Z")
I found the important lines online: > [@](#): > > So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will. I think this says that Merry & the ancient sword were more important to killing the WitchKing than Eowyn. Eowyn merely did a nice job of completing the prophesy. She was already so far in her own despair that she was one of the few mortals that could stand against the Witchking and deliver the final blow. I believe that if Aragorn or an elven warrior was at hand, they too could have delivered the blow. Prophesy had it be Eowyn. Sorry for my prior misspellings, I was in too much of a hurry and didn’t even preview. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/110 "2005-10-14T13:55:30Z")
Which raises an interesting question about how to address the hypothetical questions about JRRT’s universe, in view of the fact that he kept editing and updating things, even after publication. LOTR as it stands now is not the same book it was when it was first published! Neither is The Hobbit. JRRT revised them both, to more closely conform with his evolving legendarum. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/111 "2005-10-14T14:09:27Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > Which raises an interesting question about how to address the hypothetical questions about JRRT’s universe, in view of the fact that he kept editing and updating things, even after publication. LOTR as it stands now is not the same book it was when it was first published! Neither is The Hobbit. JRRT revised them both, to more closely conform with his evolving legendarum. Without having access to the Red Book of West March we have to live with the current final version. The revisions to LoTR were actually less than the revisions to the Hobbit however. I have both an original Return of the King Hardcover and the old Ace editions of all 3 books. The changes are fairly minimal with mostly the addition of the Appendix and other extra information to re-establish US copyright that the publishers had made a mistake on. I would almost place Merry’s sword in the same category as Bombadil, There is always some mystery. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/112 "2005-10-14T14:18:15Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > Yeah, that’s in there. But JRRT later regretted it. He felt the combo of the hobbit/woman attack sufficed to fulfill the prophecy. > > (I’m going on memory too). Bah. Damned revisionist. How’re we saddoes supposed to keep delving more and more into the backstory if the author keeps contradicting himself every five minutes? 😃 I don’t see what he was so regretful about. It’s not like he gave the Dunedain licence to toss magic around willy-nilly - only, with a lot of lead time and a lot of effort, and possibly with only a few insanely talented individuals, the possibility to craft a potent one-shot item with a strictly limited field of application. Hell, at least some of the time he was cool with the notion of the much-lower-ranking wood-woses knocking up magic stone statues (_The Faithful Stone_). ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/113 "2005-10-14T14:35:24Z")
But… but… but… He had this _vision_ thing! Each alteration brought it closer to how it was _supposed_ to be! Just like the theme propounded by Eru was being realized by the Music of the Ainur, in unexpected ways! Or something! [sub]damned subcreators[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/114 "2005-10-14T14:38:26Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Bah. Damned revisionist. How’re we saddoes supposed to keep delving more and more into the backstory if the author keeps contradicting himself every five minutes? 😃 > > I don’t see what he was so regretful about. It’s not like he gave the Dunedain licence to toss magic around willy-nilly - only, with a lot of lead time and a lot of effort, and possibly with only a few insanely talented individuals, the possibility to craft a potent one-shot item with a strictly limited field of application. Hell, at least some of the time he was cool with the notion of the much-lower-ranking wood-woses knocking up magic stone statues (_The Faithful Stone_). Well, we are also sadly 32 years past any revisions to his translations. I agree, the little magics he let in were what made the story better. The crafting of Orthanc, the Swords of the barrow wights. Dunedain’s learned crafting arts from Noldorians and dwarves and had several thousand years to experiment and practice. They should have been able to come up with a few magics. Prophesy is funny, it is never obvious and relies on what would almost appear to be convenient coincidence. The line I quoted above would support very strongly that it was Meridoc the Magnificent’s blow that made the Witch King susceptible to harm. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/115 "2005-10-14T15:09:05Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > But… but… but… He had this _vision_ thing! Each alteration brought it closer to how it was _supposed_ to be! Just like the theme propounded by Eru was being realized by the Music of the Ainur, in unexpected ways! Or something! > > [sub]damned subcreators[/sub] Naah. He just made it up as he went along, like the rest of us. 😃 Wanna read a first draft fantasy novel, going cheap? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/116 "2005-10-14T15:11:37Z")
**jrfranchi** , you are so right! I always felt that there ought to be a strain of ‘magic’ present in the line of mortals descended from Luthien, given her divine parentage. JRRT’s writings do show Luthien, and a number of elves (like Finrod in his battle with Sauron) using power via song, a la the Music of the Ainur. Why not have the descendants of Elros have a touch of that ability to call things into Being? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/117 "2005-10-14T15:19:17Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > …snip… > Wanna read a first draft fantasy novel, going cheap? I would be willing. My E-mail is public. I have read somewhere between 1500-2000 SciFi and Fantasy novels so my critical opinion will at least be well grounded. **Qadgop the Mercotan** With the Healing hands of the King and the Curse of Erech Stone I would say that Tolkien did allow for occasional Dunedain magic. Also it was strongly hinted at that the Black Numenoreans dabbled in Sorcery. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/118 "2005-10-14T15:19:35Z")
Nitpick: _Dunedain_ is already the plural form (I think the singular, _dunadan_, is _hapax legomenon_ as Bilbo’s nickname for Aragorn). But yes, even discounting the descent of Elros from both Elf and Maia, the Numenoreans were mighty chummy with the Elves for the longest time and could certainly have had the inclination to learn a thing or two from them. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/119 "2005-10-14T15:21:15Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > I would be willing. My E-mail is public. > I have read somewhere between 1500-2000 SciFi and Fantasy novels so my critical opinion will at least be well grounded. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: ::runs away and hides:: [sub]I’ll wing it over later[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171/120 "2005-10-14T15:40:17Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > **jrfranchi** , you are so right! I always felt that there ought to be a strain of ‘magic’ present in the line of mortals descended from Luthien, given her divine parentage. JRRT’s writings do show Luthien, and a number of elves (like Finrod in his battle with Sauron) using power via song, a la the Music of the Ainur. Why not have the descendants of Elros have a touch of that ability to call things into Being? What about the Druadan watch stones from the first age? Or would that be a willed creation that was revised later on? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whos-just-read-lord-of-the-rings/321171.md?page=7)