# Ask the guy whose girlfriend is marrying a woman. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 13, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whose-girlfriend-is-marrying-a-woman/678668 "2014-01-13T16:26:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whose-girlfriend-is-marrying-a-woman/678668/121 "2014-01-14T16:33:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > [Insurance fraud](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurance_fraud). Insurance fraud occurs when any act is committed with the intent to fraudulently obtain some benefit or advantage to which they are not otherwise entitled or someone knowingly denies some benefit that is due and to which someone is entitled. > > Again, you seem to conflate the ability to prove it with the legality of the act. There are 2 ways that this can be fraud, and yours isn’t one of them. 1. You give the insurance company a forged marriage certificate (or tell them you have a valid one, but you don’t) 2. You lie to your spouse about why you married them. If a benefit can be legally denied, an organization will find a way to check the legality. This is why when my wife applied for her green card, ICE sat us down and reviewed a stack of laughably fakeable (not fake, mind you) evidence. But NO employer (and I’ve worked at 5 fortune 500 companies, mind you), has ever asked for anything more than my word and her SSN. Find an instance of an insurance company denying a benefit to a lawfully married couple who both were fully aware they were getting married just for benefits. One instance is all I’m asking. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whose-girlfriend-is-marrying-a-woman/678668/122 "2014-01-14T16:34:17Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > In [US v Dedman](http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/08a0203p-06.pdf) … Well, sure; _that’s_ fraud, but in this case the fiancé is still alive. 😉 Seriously, though, the problem in that case was that it was illegal under state law for a grandfather and granddaughter to marry, even when that relationship is adoptive. Thus, the marriage was never valid, and it was fraud for the defendant to seek survivor’s benefits from the VA based on a marriage she knew to be illegal. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whose-girlfriend-is-marrying-a-woman/678668/123 "2014-01-14T16:38:49Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > My girlfriend and I were high school classmates. She was a stand-up person then and continues to be today. Her job (in which she is climbing the ranks unbelievably fast) requires to have an extremely high amount of integrity and professionalism. I have no reason to be concerned about her character. Maybe, maybe not. But you have reason to be concerned about her judgement. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whose-girlfriend-is-marrying-a-woman/678668/124 "2014-01-14T16:46:43Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > As much as I know I’m going to regret dipping my toe into these muddy waters, \*\*Magiver \*\*might, MIGHT, have a point. In [US v Dedman](http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/08a0203p-06.pdf) there is a case about a woman marrying her adoptive father The marriage was invalid because there’s no legal marriage in Arkansas between father and daughter, period. It’s nothing to do with whether they were real-love-married or not. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whose-girlfriend-is-marrying-a-woman/678668/125 "2014-01-14T16:58:46Z")
**Czarcasm** What’s remotely unethical about marrying for economic reasons? Straight people do the same thing all the time. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whose-girlfriend-is-marrying-a-woman/678668/126 "2014-01-14T17:06:23Z")
I’ve met a few people (always highly-educated) who talked about doing things like this, and it seemed to be a cry for help on their part … as in, “What is this ‘love’ you humans speak of? I’ve never felt that emotion and probably never will” ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whose-girlfriend-is-marrying-a-woman/678668/127 "2014-01-14T17:10:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Your stand-up girlfriend with a job _that requires her to have an extremely high amount of integrity and professionalism_ wants to marry a bona fide lawyer, _a right many people who loved each other fought long and hard for_, for the _sole_ purpose of getting benefits. Leaving aside the obvious ethical problems, do you know if your girlfriend’s insurance will allow her to add on someone with such severe pre-existing conditions and if so, might they insist on raising her insurance rates? So are you saying that this marriage of convenience violates the sanctity of gay marriage? Huh, I know I’ve heard that argument somewhere before… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whose-girlfriend-is-marrying-a-woman/678668/128 "2014-01-14T17:16:43Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > **Czarcasm** What’s remotely unethical about marrying for economic reasons? > > Straight people do the same thing all the time. Straight, gay, bi or what have you-none of that matters to me. I object to two people who do not love each other getting married in order to provide family health insurance for two people that are obviously not a family, especially when one has a severe pre-existing condition. I see it as abusing an already strained system, and there could be consequences later if the company decides it isn’t worth the cost to be so generous with benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Mithras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f04885/32.png) [@Mithras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithras)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whose-girlfriend-is-marrying-a-woman/678668/129 "2014-01-14T17:18:15Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > [ol] > [li]The friend in question, Debbie, is a _bona fide_ lawyer by profession. She is leaving an extremely stressful and low-paying job with the Public Defender’s office to start her own practice. Yes, she has a medical condition that she’s having surgery for in a couple of weeks and will require expensive follow-up treatments and medications.[/li][/ol] That certainly moves the concern that marriage gives your spouse the responsibility to make life and death decisions and to deal with your estate from, “serious issue but one that we’ll ignore because what could possibly go wrong in the few months we’re going to pretend it’ll take Debbie to get insurance,” to, “major concerns that greatly increase the likelihood of a worst-case scenario.” Or is that a benefit from Debbie’s point of view? Does she specifically want to exclude her relatives from making those decisions if something happens? Does she not want them to dispose of her possessions (meager or not) if she dies? ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whose-girlfriend-is-marrying-a-woman/678668/130 "2014-01-14T17:20:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Straight, gay, bi or what have you-none of that matters to me. I object to two people who do not love each other getting married in order to provide family health insurance for two people that are obviously not a family, especially when one has a severe pre-existing condition. I see it as abusing an already strained system, and there could be consequences later if the company decides it isn’t worth the cost to be so generous with benefits. My best friend and his fiancee have a 4-year-old daughter. They have purposefully held off on getting married because her and her child’s government benefits (on an already strained system) are much better while she is single. Do you object to two people who love each other _not_ getting married because it benefits them to do so? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whose-girlfriend-is-marrying-a-woman/678668/131 "2014-01-14T17:36:17Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > My best friend and his fiancee have a 4-year-old daughter. They have purposefully held off on getting married because her and her child’s government benefits (on an already strained system) are much better while she is single. Do you object to two people who love each other _not_ getting married because it benefits them to do so? I’m sorry-this question you are asking me makes no sense. Do two people have the right to _not_ get married? Ummm, sure…I quess? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whose-girlfriend-is-marrying-a-woman/678668/132 "2014-01-14T17:39:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Straight, gay, bi or what have you-none of that matters to me. I object to two people who do not love each other getting married in order to provide family health insurance for two people that are obviously not a family, especially when one has a severe pre-existing condition. I see it as abusing an already strained system, and there could be consequences later if the company decides it isn’t worth the cost to be so generous with benefits. If everything else was the same here except the two people _were_ “in love”, would you still consider that fraud? ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whose-girlfriend-is-marrying-a-woman/678668/133 "2014-01-14T17:43:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m sorry-this question you are asking me makes no sense. Do two people have the right to _not_ get married? Ummm, sure…I quess? > > 😕 😃 Okay, okay, lemme rephrase. You stated it was abuse of the system for a couple who doesn’t love each other to get married for the benefits. Conversely, is it abuse of the system to _not_ get married when a couple loves each other and has a child, because the benefits are better when the woman is single? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whose-girlfriend-is-marrying-a-woman/678668/134 "2014-01-14T17:49:50Z")
Leaving aside whether this is “fraud” in some non-legal sense, there is no crime here unless: (1) the partners don’t live together and are requesting a “confidential marriage license”\*, or (2) one of them is getting married to evade federal or territorial immigration law. There is such a thing as “marriage fraud” at state law, but it’s a purely civil concept used to determine the validity of marriages. The only criminal penalties associated with sham marriages are those applied to bigamy. \*this is an apparently unique instrument only available in California. I have no idea what it’s for, but confidential marriage license applicants must be cohabiting at the time of their application. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whose-girlfriend-is-marrying-a-woman/678668/135 "2014-01-14T17:55:58Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > [From the exact same article that you provided as your cite:](http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2012_spr/marriage_fraud.htm) > Not that it’s a particularly good cite anyway, as it is an interview conducted in a conversational style with no references to any actual laws or statutes. > > The “In other areas of law” bit that you quoted would be extremely weak sauce anyway since it doesn’t actually cite any established laws. So it’s not a good cite even if you ignore that it contradicts your assertion _two paragraphs after the bit you quoted_. In this case the girlfriend approaches her boyfriend and announces she wants to marry someone to provide a benefit. There’s no relationship whatsoever. She declares this to the boyfriend. It’s singularly to pass on a benefit just as it would be in immigration cases. [cite:](http://www.dekirby.net/library/fraudulent-marriage-to-get-a-green-card-and-us-citizenship.cfm) \*Marriage based applications for immigration rights are routinely scrutinized and heavily investigated by the Department of Immigration. If a fraudulent marriage is uncovered then the parties to that marriage based application or grant of marriage based immigration benefits and rights could be criminally prosecuted, risk high monetary penalties, deportation from the U.S., and subjection to a permanent bar from re-entry into the United States. The U.S. citizen convicted of being involved in this type of fraud scheme would risk being heavily fined or jailed for committing a federal crime. To form the basis of a valid request for immigration rights the petitioner must have entered into a valid marriage with the genuine intent of remaining permanently married to each other and producing the usual marital children or engaging in the usual family based tasks, responsibilities and physical relationships traditionally associated with a marital relationship. For example if a couple applying for citizenship were able to produce a biological child or children together then the Department of Immigration inquiry into the validity of the marital relationship would likely end on a permanent basis for the reason that the resultant marital/family based relationships irrefutably exist to validate the marriage on a permanent basis. \* It seems clear the girlfriend has specified that she wishes a relationship with her boyfriend and is only getting married to transfer an employee benefit and for no other reason. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whose-girlfriend-is-marrying-a-woman/678668/136 "2014-01-14T17:57:55Z")
Immigration cases are based on a specific statute criminalizing such conduct, 8 U.S.C. § 1325©. There is no analogue for the “crime” you describe. ETA: For the record, I think this whole affair is really stupid, not that the OP asked for our opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whose-girlfriend-is-marrying-a-woman/678668/137 "2014-01-14T17:59:57Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > That is why it isn’t fraud. It’s a “full” marriage, legally identical to any other marriage. Based on her conversation with her boyfriend it doesn’t appear to be her intent. She is engaging in a relationship with him and not her friend. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whose-girlfriend-is-marrying-a-woman/678668/138 "2014-01-14T18:03:33Z")
You posted a cite about immigration. We’re not talking about immigration, we’re talking about insurance. I know both words start with the letter “i” but do try to keep up. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whose-girlfriend-is-marrying-a-woman/678668/139 "2014-01-14T18:04:35Z")
Have y’all considered the issues of making medical decisions if Louise is incapacitated? If you and Louise want to live together, will it be the three of you? (Come on knock on my door …) Does Louise have any concerns about being thought of as a lesbian or bi? For everyone else, why is getting married for insurance reasons fraud? If you fake a marriage (saying you’re married but you’re not) that is fraud but if you are legally married then why does it matter to the insurance company why you did it? It’s not like a immigration where the person gets the benefits of the marriage (the green card) even after the marriage ends. The day Louise and Debbie divorce, Debbie loses her coverage. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whose-girlfriend-is-marrying-a-woman/678668/140 "2014-01-14T18:09:00Z")
If you look at landmark court cases the legal system attempts to apply a litmus test. In this case, if a child is produced and the biological parents are killed in an accident the custody of the child would go to the spouse. This would certainly be contested by the parents of the biological parents if the child was raised by it’s biological parents. Intent is everything and in this case it appears, based on what the op said, that the intended relationship was between him and his girlfriend. It wasn’t presented as an open marriage, it was presented as an attempt to apply a legal benefit to someone in need. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whose-girlfriend-is-marrying-a-woman/678668.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-guy-whose-girlfriend-is-marrying-a-woman/678668.md?page=8)