# Ask the Libertarian Objectivist Christian **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2000, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian-objectivist-christian/23130 "2000-06-21T20:27:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2000, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian-objectivist-christian/23130/1 "2000-06-21T20:27:06Z")
I suppose it was inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2000, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian-objectivist-christian/23130/2 "2000-06-21T20:29:40Z")
Okay, what do you stand for? ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2000, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian-objectivist-christian/23130/3 "2000-06-21T20:32:40Z")
What color is air? šŸ˜› ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2000, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian-objectivist-christian/23130/4 "2000-06-21T20:33:38Z")
What is the air speed velocityā€¦ Oh, never mind! :wally Esprix ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2000, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian-objectivist-christian/23130/5 "2000-06-21T20:35:27Z")
What about economy of scale, dang it??? ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2000, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian-objectivist-christian/23130/6 "2000-06-21T20:36:39Z")
Do you actually tell people that you are a libertarian objectivist christian? Or do you just say libertarian. Or just say christian. Cause LOC is a pretty big mouthfull. Itā€™s like if I told people I was a neo-sorelian with leninist tendencies. It gets to be a bit much. Also, what is your opinion of ann rand as both a person and a thinker. How about alan greenspan. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2000, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian-objectivist-christian/23130/7 "2000-06-21T21:54:18Z")
OK, I know that you donā€™t believe that itā€™s right to ever force someone to help someone else out, as you are a libertarian, and Iā€™ve read quite a few of your posts with great interest. Iā€™m guessing that as a Christian, you do help others out, and believe that it is the correct thing to do. What Iā€™m wondering is whether you believe that you are doing so to please your God or for the pure selfish (in the objectivist sense of the word) joy you get from it. This promises to be an interesting thread, one that Iā€™ll follow, being interested interested in objectivism and a libertarian. Personally, Iā€™m an atheist, and my personal philosophy is somewhat of a mix between objectivism and Taoism. I read a post of yours talking about your belief that Jesus is the ultimate libertarian. I think that would be relevant to include in this thread. Someday, I plan to start a ā€œThe Tao of Libertarianismā€ thread. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2000, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian-objectivist-christian/23130/8 "2000-06-21T22:11:02Z")
**Adam Yax** > [@](#): > > _Okay, what do you stand for?_ Sometimes for hours. _ **Phil** _ > [@](#): > > What color is air? Please be more specific. **JMullaney** > [@](#): > > _What about economy of scale, dang it???_ [Try here](http://www.acmescale.com/). * * * OldScratch and WaterJ2 will follow: ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2000, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian-objectivist-christian/23130/9 "2000-06-21T22:20:22Z")
no, no, I told you! Weā€™re an anarchosydicalist commune! ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2000, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian-objectivist-christian/23130/10 "2000-06-21T22:31:18Z")
**OldScratch** > [@](#): > > _Do you actually tell people that you are a libertarian objectivist christian? Or do you just say libertarian. Or just say christian. Cause LOC is a pretty big mouthfull. Itā€™s like if I told people I was a neo-sorelian with leninist tendencies. It gets to be a bit much._ Actually, I do. As a very high Melancholy, I find it necessary to be as specific and accurate as possible with the most efficient expression. For me, the three come together to make one. It is a gestalt. > [@](#): > > _Also, what is your opinion of [Ayn Rand] as both a person and a thinker._ I suspect that, as a person, she was dishonest. Or at least deluded. And that was even before reading about all the controversy over her. I suspected that when I saw that, at the end of _Atlas Shrugged_, she left Eddie behind. And despite the protestations to the contrary by her psycho-phants, that was a really shitty thing to do. I suspect that her personal dishonesty was the cause of her futile efforts, as a thinker, to introduce to her philosophy (which I have cleaned up and adopted) unnecessary entities like atheism and proof that A is A. The latter is axiomatic and the former is irrelevant. > [@](#): > > _How about alan greenspan._ Not sure what to think about him either way. He seems to talk the talk of a fiscal conservative, yet why has he not worked toward elimination of the Federal Reserve? But then again, maybe he is, and I just donā€™t know about it. **JMullaney** > [@](#): > > _no, no, I told you! Weā€™re an [anarchosyndicalist] commune!_ Oh, well, why didnā€™t you say so? In that case I can state categorically. * * * WaterJ2 will follow ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2000, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian-objectivist-christian/23130/11 "2000-06-21T22:35:55Z")
Whats a libertarian? Can they be objective? are they for liberating what? why is chocolate brown? ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2000, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian-objectivist-christian/23130/12 "2000-06-21T22:46:03Z")
> [@](#): > > her philosophy (which I have cleaned up and adopted) unnecessary entities like atheism and proof that A is A. As an Objectivist, I strongly protest your self-characterization as an Objectivist. If you have merely taken what you like out of the philosophy and abandoned the fundamentals, you have no cause in calling yourself an Objectivist. Perhaps you could come up with a different name for your philosophy, but please stop saying that you are an Objectivist, because you are not. Thank You. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2000, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian-objectivist-christian/23130/13 "2000-06-21T22:56:38Z")
**WaterJ2** > [@](#): > > _OK, I know that you donā€™t believe that itā€™s right to ever force someone to help someone else out, as you are a libertarian, and Iā€™ve read quite a few of your posts with great interest._ Well, ā€œeverā€ is awfully broad, as is ā€œhelp someone else outā€. For example, I would advocate forcing A, who has abridged the rights of B, to restore Bā€™s rights, thereby, in a way, I suppose, helping out B. > [@](#): > > _Iā€™m guessing that as a Christian, you do help others out, and believe that it is the correct thing to do._ Sometimes it is the correct thing to do, and sometimes it isnā€™t. I try (failing miserably) to love, and when I love, I am doing the ā€œcorrect thingā€. Good deeds come solely from good hearts. > [@](#): > > _What Iā€™m wondering is whether you believe that you are doing so to please your God or for the pure selfish (in the objectivist sense of the word) joy you get from it._ Actually, that is not how I interpret selfishness (in the objectivist sense of the word). I interpret it as focusing on my self-interest. As it happens, when I do, I find that redirecting my focus to God is even _more_ in my self-interest. He is the owner of the heavens and the earth. He gave me my life and therefore my rights. He breathed His Spirit into my heart and gave me faith in Him. It doesnā€™t take a rocket scientist, knowing these things, to apprehend how best to order his priorities. I want to please our God because (1) He is the Proprietor of all that exists [Libertarianism] (2) It is in my self-interest to please Him [Objectivism] and (3) We love One Another [Christianity]. > [@](#): > > _This promises to be an interesting thread, one that Iā€™ll follow, being interested [in] objectivism and a libertarian._ Feel free to participate or lurk as you please. > [@](#): > > _Personally, Iā€™m an atheistā€¦_ I wonā€™t hold your religion against you. > [@](#): > > _ā€¦and my personal philosophy is somewhat of a mix between objectivism and Taoism._ That is an amazing > [@](#): > > _I read a post of yours talking about your belief that Jesus is the ultimate libertarian. I think that would be relevant to include in this thread._ Actually, the _consumate_ libertarian. He never initiated force or fraud, but rose to defend His house when trespassers and vandals despoiled it. > [@](#): > > - Someday, I plan to start a ā€œThe Tao of Libertarianismā€ thread.\* but the Libertarianism part is, well, like I already said about the In any case, I look forward to it. ---
**Author:** ![Gilligan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Gilligan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gilligan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2000, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian-objectivist-christian/23130/14 "2000-06-21T23:10:27Z")
**Libertarian** You werenā€™t always a libertarian. What was the biggest philosophical obstacle you had to overcome in your ā€œconversionā€? Do you consider it to have been a conversion, or more a matter of recognizing what you had already believed but hadnā€™t identified as such? Really, that question could be asked about all three of your descriptive terms. Iā€™ve noticed lately you referring to yourself and another poster or two by personality types based on the ā€œfour temperamentsā€ or ā€œhumours.ā€ Whatā€™s up with that? **waterj2** I would also be interested in your view of the Tao of Libertarianism. I see a libertarian political philosophy pretty clearly stated in chapters 57 to 59 of the Daodejing; would you agree? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2000, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian-objectivist-christian/23130/15 "2000-06-21T23:47:28Z")
**Vanilla** > [@](#): > > \*[Whatā€™s] a libertarian? \* A person who opposes the initiation of force or fraud. > [@](#): > > _Can they be objective?_ Only if they adopt Godā€™s frame of reference. > [@](#): > > _are they for liberating what?_ People. > [@](#): > > _why is chocolate brown?_ Not all chocolate is brown. **ChiefWahoo** > [@](#): > > _As an Objectivist, I strongly protest your self-characterization as an Objectivist._ While your protest is duly noted, you will understand that your being an Objectivist confers upon you no mystical authority over me. > [@](#): > > _If you have merely taken what you like out of the philosophy and abandoned the fundamentals, you have no cause in calling yourself an Objectivist._ What I have done is the opposite. I have retained the fundamentals while discarding the ornamentals. > [@](#): > > _Perhaps you could come up with a different name for your philosophy, but please stop saying that you are an Objectivist, because you are not._ My philosophy is Libertarian Objectivist Christianity. I regret that you are unhappy with the name. **Gilligan** > [@](#): > > _You werenā€™t always a libertarian. What was the biggest philosophical obstacle you had to overcome in your ā€œconversionā€? Do you consider it to have been a conversion, or more a matter of recognizing what you had already believed but hadnā€™t identified as such? Really, that question could be asked about all three of your descriptive terms._ For Libertarianism, I had to realize that neither God nor nature had conferred upon any man (including me) any authority over the lives and property of other men, and that God or nature _had_ conferred authority upon all men (including me) over their own. For Christianity, I had to freely and willingly lay down my own life. It seemed a crazy notion to me, until I saw that Jesus said, ā€œBefore Abraham was born, I am.ā€ For Objectivism, I ā€œconvertedā€ when I realized that my own self-interest coincides with Godā€™s, that He (and He alone) is objectively real, and that rationalizing away my own experience was dishonest. If We are One ā€” and Jesus says that We are ā€” then I need to align my own priorities with His. > [@](#): > > _Iā€™ve noticed lately you referring to yourself and another poster or two by personality types based on the ā€œfour temperamentsā€ or ā€œhumours.ā€ Whatā€™s up with that?_ I am given to understand (though I have been unable to verify this) that the four temperaments were conceived by Hippocrates. They are the Sanguine, the Choleric, the Phlegmatic, and the Melancholoy. I tracked down [a site](http://www.hippy.freeserve.co.uk/profileq.htm) that, more or less, can evaluate your temperament (they wrongly call it ā€œpersonalityā€). ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2000, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian-objectivist-christian/23130/16 "2000-06-22T00:08:30Z")
Hello Libertarian, **vanila** asked: ā€œWhats a libertarian?ā€ You answered: "A person who opposes the initiation of force or fraud. " I oppose the initiation of force or fraud, and yet I am not a libertarian. Do you believe that your answer was helpful for vanila? What is your purpose in starting this thread? ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2000, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian-objectivist-christian/23130/17 "2000-06-22T00:14:22Z")
Iā€™ve got a different kind of question for you. Feel free to ignore it if it is too personal or if you think Iā€™m trolling (Iā€™m not). You have a well-defined philosophy of how you view the world, which philosophy includes avoiding expedience. But, broadly speaking, how do you live your life? Do you eschew banks because of high coercion on them and you by the Feds, or do you resign yourself to ā€œwhat isā€ until the ā€œwhat can beā€ becomes? Do you vote if there isnā€™t a Libertarian (or libertarian) candidate, or would voting for the Democrat or Republican least far from your views simply make you a perpetuator of a system you see as wrong? The myriad laws of our country that are clearly coercive and do not even purport to protect _against_ coercion; do you feel bound by them? Do you obey them even if you donā€™t feel personally bound? Do you ever say, ā€œYou know what? Today _my_ rights have the advantage, and Iā€™m going to cut that a\*\*hole off and beat him to the parking space!ā€ OK, the last bit was a little bit facetious, but I hope you can see what Iā€™m getting at. ---
**Author:** ![avalongod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@avalongod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/avalongod)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2000, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian-objectivist-christian/23130/18 "2000-06-22T00:45:28Z")
quote: ```auto They come from the Hippocratic tradition. Tough to ascertain whether Hippocrates himself wrote them (often students took their master's name in the Greek tradition). from 2Sense: quote: ~~~vanila asked: "Whats a libertarian?" You answered: "A person who opposes the initiation of force or fraud. " I oppose the initiation of force or fraud, and yet I am not a libertarian. Do you believe that your answer was helpful for vanila? From what (little) I know of Libertarian, I do think Libertarian summed up the philosophy in the $.50 version. While 2Sense may oppose force or fraud (like many of us do) I get the impression that this theme is THE CENTRAL THEME of their philosophy, whereas it might not necessarily be for the rest of us. Please correct me if I am wrong. I would agree with 2Sense that a more detailed definition might be helpful. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Baraqiyal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@Baraqiyal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baraqiyal)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2000, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian-objectivist-christian/23130/19 "2000-06-22T02:23:41Z")
To your knowledge, has the United States has ever existed in a Libertarian context? If so, in what era and what were the consequences? Do you believe that the bible is the word of God? ---
**Author:** ![djwalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8edcca/32.png) [@djwalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/djwalker)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2000, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian-objectivist-christian/23130/20 "2000-06-22T02:53:29Z")
Gee I thought I was the only oneā€¦ Though Iā€™m not an objectivist, I am a libertarian Catholic, which, as you can imagine, carries with it a certain amount of cognitive dissonance. I was libertarian before I was Catholic, so there have been adjustments. Especially in the area of libertarian free market solutions to social problems, (e.g. poverty). vs. Catholic Social Teachings (e.g., preferential option for the poor). Many libs (especially Randian Objectivists) see poverty as a non-problem, merely the natural consequences of the inequality of human intellect/ambition/breeding. Its hard to square that with the desire to follow Jesus. Have you had similar conflicts? Which were you first, libertarian or Christian. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian-objectivist-christian/23130.md?page=2)