# Ask the Libertarian **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 19, 2002, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian/143918 "2002-12-19T22:51:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian/143918/81 "2002-12-20T21:04:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*I don’t understand your question. Are you asking whether people in Libertaria who own docks may charge people to dock at them? Or are you asking whether a government protecting the dock owner is coercive? \*\* Boats making use of a harbor do not necessarily need a dock or pier. They can drop anchor. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian/143918/82 "2002-12-20T21:05:58Z")
Oh, I gotcha. Are you asking what would happen if no one came ashore? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian/143918/83 "2002-12-20T21:07:16Z")
And, of course, a boat can just keep on 'truckin. New York Harbor connects the Hudson River with the Atlantic. Can New York Harbor be “owned”? Can ships just passing through be charged in a perfect libertarian world? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian/143918/84 "2002-12-20T21:10:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Oh, I gotcha. Are you asking what would happen if no one came ashore? \*\* For starters. Sandy Point was financed by a fee for passage through the harbor. Would that take in a libertarian context? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian/143918/85 "2002-12-20T21:15:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > \*\*And, of course, a boat can just keep on 'truckin. New York Harbor connects the Hudson River with the Atlantic. Can New York Harbor be “owned”? Can ships just passing through be charged in a perfect libertarian world? \*\* Sure it can. Owners are people who call the shots, people who exercise rights with respect to the property they own. New York Harbor is owned by the people in New York who have the greatest political clout. People like that are the same people who own all the “public” property, the roads, and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian/143918/86 "2002-12-20T21:16:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > \*\*For starters. Sandy Point was financed by a fee for passage through the harbor. Would that take in a libertarian context? \*\* If the fee was levied by the harbor owner, it would. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian/143918/87 "2002-12-20T21:19:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Sure it can. Owners are people who call the shots, people who exercise rights with respect to the property they own. New York Harbor is owned by the people in New York who have the greatest political clout. People like that are the same people who own all the “public” property, the roads, and so forth. \*\* You dodged the question. I understand that the harbor is publicly owned under the status quo. We aren’t talking about the status quo. We’re talking about a perfect libertarian state. So again I ask: in a perfect libertarian state, can large seaways be “owned”? How? And could Sandy Point have been financed in the same way in a perfect libertarian state? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian/143918/88 "2002-12-20T21:21:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*If the fee was levied by the harbor owner, it would. \*\* So am I to understand that New York harbor can be “owned” in a perfect libertarian world? How about the Straits of Gibralter? The entrance to the Gulf of Mexico? A chunk of the Atlantic Ocean? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian/143918/89 "2002-12-20T21:22:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*First question: Nothing. But what was to prevent the 10 families from moving into a sane neighborhood? 😉 > \*\* The moving vans can’t afford the road fee? Seriously, though, wouldn’t private ownership of roads be inconvenient? I mean, I set off on my trip, and start in Mr. Big’s cul-de-sac, and have to negotiate passage with him. then I get off his road and am on Mr. X’s road, and I have to pay his fee, then onto another road, and so on. Instead of just dealing with one road owner, like I do now, I have to deal with a bunch. Wouldn’t that just really slow things down? Also, another hypothetical, in Libertaria. Lets say there’s a black neighborhood. The only method of transportation out of the neighborhood, except for walking, are the roads that go out of the neighborhood. Since the neighborhood is so compact, new roads out would be very difficult to build, and there’s no subway into the neighborhood. Now, I’m a racist. Fortunately for me and my racist schemes, I’m a rich racist, so I buy all the roads that go out of the neighborhood, and I say, “No blacks are allowed on these roads I own.” Would that be allowed in Libertaria? I mean, I own those roads, so I can decide who can use them. On the other hand, those roads are the only way in and out of the neighborhood, so I’m really restricting freedom of movement. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian/143918/90 "2002-12-20T21:24:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > \*\*You dodged the question. I understand that the harbor is publicly owned under the status quo. We aren’t talking about the status quo. We’re talking about a perfect libertarian state. > > So again I ask: in a perfect libertarian state, can large seaways be “owned”? How? > > And could Sandy Point have been financed in the same way in a perfect libertarian state? \*\* Why is the “how” any different for one owner (a gang of politicians) than the other (a private cooperative)? I just don’t understand your question in its latest phrasing. (Please don’t accuse me of dodging. You could use the Pit thread that you already have for that.) ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian/143918/91 "2002-12-20T21:26:52Z")
“Market for Liberty” is a classic. Check it out: [http://laissezfairebooks.com/product.cfm?op=view&pid=LI5886](http://laissezfairebooks.com/product.cfm?op=view&pid=LI5886) ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian/143918/92 "2002-12-20T21:27:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*The moving vans can’t afford the road fee? Seriously, though, wouldn’t private ownership of roads be inconvenient? I mean, I set off on my trip, and start in Mr. Big’s cul-de-sac, and have to negotiate passage with him. then I get off his road and am on Mr. X’s road, and I have to pay his fee, then onto another road, and so on. Instead of just dealing with one road owner, like I do now, I have to deal with a bunch. Wouldn’t that just really slow things down? > > Also, another hypothetical, in Libertaria. Lets say there’s a black neighborhood. The only method of transportation out of the neighborhood, except for walking, are the roads that go out of the neighborhood. Since the neighborhood is so compact, new roads out would be very difficult to build, and there’s no subway into the neighborhood. Now, I’m a racist. Fortunately for me and my racist schemes, I’m a rich racist, so I buy all the roads that go out of the neighborhood, and I say, “No blacks are allowed on these roads I own.” Would that be allowed in Libertaria? I mean, I own those roads, so I can decide who can use them. On the other hand, those roads are the only way in and out of the neighborhood, so I’m really restricting freedom of movement. \*\* Privately owned roads would be inconvenient if they operated that way. But why should they? As it is, you’re already dealing with a lot of road owners. They’re just different little governments and contractors all over the place. With respect to your “another hypothetical”, I am a wealthy anti-racist, and I thwart your plans by buying all the land ahead of you, and building the black people the finest roads in the land. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian/143918/93 "2002-12-20T21:28:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KidCharlemagne \* > \*\*“Market for Liberty” is a classic. Check it out: > > [http://laissezfairebooks.com/product.cfm?op=view&pid=LI5886](http://laissezfairebooks.com/product.cfm?op=view&pid=LI5886) \*\* Thank you. Yes, I’m aware of it. Upon your recommendation, I’ll give it a look. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian/143918/94 "2002-12-20T21:46:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > **Why is the “how” any different for one owner (a gang of politicians) than the other (a private cooperative)? I just don’t understand your question in its latest phrasing.** The government exercises dominion over certain waterways because it can, and because it is in the interests of its citizens for it to do so. It is a pure exercise of force. Is that the way things work in Libertopia? Can I call myself the “owner” of New York harbor solely because I have a couple of nuclear subs patrolling it? And does my exercise of dominion over the harbor mean that anyone who dares enter the harbor without my permission is initiating force against _me_?\*\* > [@](#): > > (Please don’t accuse me of dodging. You could use the Pit thread that you already have for that.) \*\* Well, don’t dodge then. If I ask “how does this work in a pure libertarian state?” and you reply “this is how it works under the status quo,” you really haven’t answered the question, have you? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian/143918/95 "2002-12-20T21:47:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\* > With respect to your “another hypothetical”, I am a wealthy anti-racist, and I thwart your plans by buying all the land ahead of you, and building the black people the finest roads in the land. \*\* Nah, because you didn’t know I was going to buy the roads, so I managed to steal a march on you. But, structurally, is there anything to prevent me from doing that? I mean, a rich benefactor is nice to have (even in this society), and obviously, if you were to build the black people in that neighborhood “the finest roads in the land”, that would solve the problem. However, rich benefactors, unfortunately, are hard to find, so is there any way to make sure these people have a way in and out of their neighborhood without having to rely on a rich benefactor. As a more general question, how do you prevent/limit racial, or religious, or other forms of discrimination in Libertaria? Or, should that even be a goal of a Libertarian society? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian/143918/96 "2002-12-20T21:56:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > \*\*The government exercises dominion over certain waterways because it can, and because it is in the interests of its citizens for it to do so. It is a pure exercise of force. > > Is that the way things work in Libertopia? Can I call myself the “owner” of New York harbor solely because I have a couple of nuclear subs patrolling it? > > And does my exercise of dominion over the harbor mean that anyone who dares enter the harbor without my permission is initiating force against _me_?\*\*Well, don’t dodge then. If I ask “how does this work in a pure libertarian state?” and you reply “this is how it works under the status quo,” you really haven’t answered the question, have you? \*\* Did you consider whether the question might not have been clear to me? Did you consider any alternative at all other than that I was dodging? I know that you respect me because you’ve said so. Might I recommend that you, on occasion, give me some benefit of the doubt about matters of intellectual honesty? 🙂 Libertaria is no different than any other place in identifying that property you occupy is property you own unless you have stolen it. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian/143918/97 "2002-12-20T21:58:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*Nah, because you didn’t know I was going to buy the roads, so I managed to steal a march on you. But, structurally, is there anything to prevent me from doing that? I mean, a rich benefactor is nice to have (even in this society), and obviously, if you were to build the black people in that neighborhood “the finest roads in the land”, that would solve the problem. However, rich benefactors, unfortunately, are hard to find, so is there any way to make sure these people have a way in and out of their neighborhood without having to rely on a rich benefactor. As a more general question, how do you prevent/limit racial, or religious, or other forms of discrimination in Libertaria? Or, should that even be a goal of a Libertarian society? \*\* Nah. I’ve always been fond of black because it goes so well with red. [Rich benefactors](http://www.philanthropists.org/do/Home) really are not hard to find. After all, they’re already paying a whopping majority of the tax dollars. Libertarianism does not prohibit discrimination. It prohibits only coercion. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian/143918/98 "2002-12-20T22:23:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Libertaria is no different than any other place in identifying that property you occupy is property you own unless you have stolen it. \*\* Soooooo…yes, I can own the harbor if I’m the first to plunk a nuclear sub in there? And anyone entering the harbor thereafter is initiating force against _me_? Does the size of the seaway matter? What if I plunk a sub in the Atlantic? Do I “own” some portion of the ocean? How much? If someone enters my ocean territory but evades my sub, have they trespassed? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian/143918/99 "2002-12-20T22:36:19Z")
I’ve already answered your question, but let me maybe simplify it a bit for you. Think how, for example, Duke Power owns High Rock Lake. They don’t need a nuclear submarine. The state of North Carolina defends their rights. The size that they own is the size that they own. And when boaters don’t obey the rules, Duke Power prosecutes. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian/143918/100 "2002-12-20T23:12:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*I’ve already answered your question, but let me maybe simplify it a bit for you. Think how, for example, Duke Power owns High Rock Lake. They don’t need a nuclear submarine. The state of North Carolina defends their rights. The size that they own is the size that they own. And when boaters don’t obey the rules, Duke Power prosecutes. \*\* Are you seriously going to compare a manmade lake with a huge natural seaway? Besides, I doubt very much that Duke “owns” the lake. They may own part of the lake’s _shoreline_, but that’s not the same thing. I doubt boaters busted near Duke’s facilities are charged with trespass; I suspect it’s more like a statute specifically designed to deal with interference with energy facilities. And BTW, you really haven’t answered my prior questions. They pertain to how this system of yours scale to handle immense seaways. In Libertopia, how do I come to “own” New York harbor such that I can charge for the right to passage? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian/143918.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-libertarian/143918.md?page=6)