# Ask the Mormon **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 21, 2003, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-mormon/162971 "2003-03-21T02:31:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-mormon/162971/241 "2003-04-02T16:45:19Z")
Well, I guess since nobody is putting a gun to your head, you’re safe **birdgirl**. ---
**Author:** ![cadolphin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c37758/32.png) [@cadolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cadolphin)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-mormon/162971/242 "2003-04-02T18:48:47Z")
[King James version of the Bible - Lev.18](http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=493581) > [@](#): > > [1] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, > [2] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God. > [3] After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances. > [4] Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God. > [5] Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD. > [6] None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD. > [7] The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. > [8] The nakedness of thy father’s wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father’s nakedness. > [9] The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover. > [10] The nakedness of thy son’s daughter, or of thy daughter’s daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness. > [11] The nakedness of thy father’s wife’s daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. > [12] Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father’s sister: she is thy father’s near kinswoman. > [13] Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother’s sister: for she is thy mother’s near kinswoman. > [14] Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father’s brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt. > [15] Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son’s wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. > [16] Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother’s wife: it is thy brother’s nakedness. > [17] Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son’s daughter, or her daughter’s daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness. > [18] Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time. > [19] Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness. > [20] Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour’s wife, to defile thyself with her. > [21] And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD. > **[22] Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.** > [23] Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion. > [24] Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: > [25] And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. > [26] Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: > [27] (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled; ) > [28] That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you. > **[29] For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people. > [30] Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.** (bolding by me to set off the specific verses, but I posted the entire chapter so as not to take anything out of context. “Punctuation changed on v.27 to avoid smilies” ) For those of you saying: > [@](#): > > Oh yeah!! It’s the same reasoning **emarkp, genie** and others give for why the LDS doesn’t accept homosexuals, isn’t it? and > [@](#): > > I cannot believe what I am reading here in regards to the discrimination against homosexuals and the polygamy. I can’t imagine any god who would allow or encourage such behavior. Such a god is not one I would ever follow or worship. I am pointing out that the majority of churches take this position on homosexual behavior as it’s stated in the Bible. Let me also refer you to something I said regarding this issue on this same page above: > [@](#): > > quote:Originally posted by **mangeorge** > No offense, but that’s the same tired old line. I understand, though, that it’s the only one you have. > But; > Can I take it then that it’s the same condemnation for unmarrieds to have sexual relations, whether same sex or not? > > In a word… > > yes and further up on the page, another post of mine, I went into great detail explaining both the LDS church’s position, posted quotes from two churches who have more liberal views on the subject, AND, I posted my personal view on the subject. I think it would be a waste of bandwidth to repost my large post and if you are so included to read it, it’s right there for you to look at. I for one, am not trying to convert anyone to the LDS church or: > [@](#): > > …Such a god is not one I would ever follow or worship. I don’t think anyone else in this thread is asking anyone to follow the LDS teachings if they don’t fit for you. What we _are_ doing is answering your questions as to what the LDS official teachings/beliefs are. I’ve already stated that every member of the LDS church are taught to think, ponder, pray and develop a testimony about _everything_ that is taught within the Church… _NOT_ to blindly accept and follow, however there are members that do take, IMO, the _easy_ route and don’t go to the trouble of figuring out what they belief for themselves. It’s old…it’s the same old thing…but that’s because many churches follow the Bible and say the same old thing. Some of the Protestant religions have come out and accepted active homosexuals into their fold and even allowed then to become ordained ministers (as I pointed out earlier). The LDS Church HAS changed their position about a LOT of things, but their position on active homosexual behavior is not one of the areas. They do warmly accept homosexuals as active members of the church who are not acting in an “immoral” way. Meaning the same thing as if a heterosexual would and that is to not engage in sexual behavior outside of marriage. I don’t have a cite, other then my memory, and that’s always fallible, but IIRC, there was a time the LDS Church did not warmly accept homosexuals “into the fold” even if they were not acting on the urge to engage in same sex sexual behavior. So to that extent there has been more acceptance. There is no more “official” condemnation, however, I feel the necessity to point out so that when you observe behavior from Church members that does not agree with what I’ve just said is the official position. And that is not every member has become more accepting. There is still prejudice by members within the Church in many areas. Not just homosexuals. I remember a HUGE exodus by members of the Church, and in some cases life long or members who came from generations in the church, when President Kimball made the announcement about the official position on members of the church of African heritage. Yes, I do know I just opened a can of worms by using that analogy, but it is the closest experience we have got to draw from. If we can’t be open and honest and address things that way, what have we got? Kathy ---
**Author:** ![cadolphin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c37758/32.png) [@cadolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cadolphin)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-mormon/162971/243 "2003-04-02T18:59:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by j.c. \* > \*\*djxiii > I don’t expect you to have a source for how many men were “willing,” but I would like to see the population stats. (I have no idea when the church did this - didn’t it stop during the Gay Ninties?) \*\* Since **Rico** and I were not sure we were going to stay in this house long when we moved in here (more accurately, he liked the house; I didn’t so was trying to talk him into moving), I’ve never unpacked my BOXES and BOXES of books. Let me go rummage through them to find my Church History information. BB ASAP with as much of the info I have you would like to see. (Translation: I don’t remember if all the stats are there but I remember some is.) Kathy ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-mormon/162971/244 "2003-04-02T19:38:28Z")
From the 1890 US census (the first year Utah is available at [http://fisher.lib.virginia.edu/census/](http://fisher.lib.virginia.edu/census/) ): Utah 1890 Total Males: 110, 463 Total Females: 97,442 11.79% more males than females. United States 1890 Total Males: 31,803,937 Total Females: 30,312,874 4.69% more males than females ---
**Author:** ![birdgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/51bf81/32.png) [@birdgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/birdgirl)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-mormon/162971/245 "2003-04-02T20:15:43Z")
Hmmmmm…so the assertion that there were more women than men apparently is not true, according to the 1890 Utah census data? Any other viable explanations? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rico \* > \*\*From the 1890 US census (the first year Utah is available at [http://fisher.lib.virginia.edu/census/](http://fisher.lib.virginia.edu/census/) ): > > Utah 1890 > > Total Males: 110, 463 > Total Females: 97,442 > > 11.79% more males than females. > > \*\* > [@](#): > > The most practical answer I’ve ever been given regarding the practice of polygamy at ANY time has to do with the number of men and number of women available. This is particularily true of the period of time that polygamy was practiced within the Church. There were simply more women than men and the portion of men willing to practice plural marriage was only a fraction of the whole… ---
**Author:** ![djxiii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6f9a4e/32.png) [@djxiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/djxiii)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-mormon/162971/246 "2003-04-02T20:23:36Z")
Wow. Those numbers pretty much refute that popular answer regarding the necessity of polygamy in the early Church. The answer I gave is one I have heard several times including at Institute. Fascinating. Here’s an interesting cite: "The exact percentage of Latter-day Saints who participated in the practice is not known, but studies suggest a maximum of from 20% to 25% of LDS adults were members of polygamous households. " this is from the LDSFAQ at BYU [Plural Marriage](http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/emmain.asp?number=145) Which is a very interesting read but as usual doesn’t really go into the why’s of it. Why did the Lord make this call? I don’t actually care, I’m just glad I wasn’t one of the people who had to practice it. ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-mormon/162971/247 "2003-04-02T20:23:49Z")
**birdgirl** , I did not intend to start a debate on this. This is not the forum for any debates. **j.c.** asked a question, and I answered it. This thread is, to quote **cadolphin** : > [@](#): > > What we are doing is answering your questions as to what the LDS official teachings/beliefs are. Please keep arguments, witnessing, converting, etc. where they belong, in Great Debates or The Pit. This is nothing more than an informative thread. And, ask anyone, I will gladly debate the merits of Mormonism anywhere else. I am one of the better-known post-Mormons on the board. In this thread I simply post facts. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-mormon/162971/248 "2003-04-02T20:25:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Hmmmmm…so the assertion that there were more women than men apparently is not true, according to the 1890 Utah census data? Any other viable explanations? Dude, did you completely ignore my post? 1 woman with 3 husbands will still only have 1 child a year. 1 man with 3 wives can have 3 children a year. ---
**Author:** ![Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glory)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-mormon/162971/249 "2003-04-02T20:31:49Z")
Hmmm, and three husbands each with one wife can still have three children a year. If the census data states that the number of men/women were comparable, where is the benefit of one man getting to have three children while two men get none? Sorry, I have always felt that polygamy smacks too much of male fantasy. If women were allowed the equal privilege of multiple husbands (polyandry) it would be a lot more fair and less distasteful. _tongue in cheek female fantasy_ Okay, husband number 1 mow the lawn, husband number 2 go to the grocery store, husband number 3 watch the kids! ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-mormon/162971/250 "2003-04-02T20:32:08Z")
To add: When you create a new Church, the best way to get converts is to have children born into it. The best way to do that is to make sure as many women are married and having babies as quickly as possible. There’s a verse in the Book of Mormon—either 2 Nephi or Jacob. Ahh, here it is. Jacob 2: 27-30 > [@](#): > > 27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any aman among you have save it be bone• cwife; and concubines he shall have none; > > 28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the achastity of women. And bwhoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts. > > 29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or acursed• be the land for their sakes. > > 30 **For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up aseed• unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.** There ya go. ---
**Author:** ![birdgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/51bf81/32.png) [@birdgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/birdgirl)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-mormon/162971/251 "2003-04-02T20:54:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by djxiii \* > \*\*I guess the question would be… how is it unfair? The most practical answer I’ve ever been given regarding the practice of polygamy at ANY time has to do with the number of men and number of women available…But that leads us to Polygamy in Heaven. Looking around me week in and week out I see more women who are doing what they should be and who are likely to achieve that highest degree of reward than men. If that’s true… should they be denied a worthy spouse? \*\* How is it unfair, you ask? Men get to have multiple wives. Women do not. That is how it is unfair. Very simple. When one group of people are allowed to have something/do something based one their sex/gender, and the other group is NOT allowed to to do something because of their sex/gender, that is patently unfair. The same would hold for discrimination based on race, etc. About the polygamy in heaven: in your scenario, these women who get to heaven and don’t have a spouse because there are more women than men, sure they should have a worthy spouse. BUT what self-respecting woman would consider a man who is married to/sleeping with another woman to be a good and worthy spouse??? In heaven or on earth? What god would think it is OK to for a man to be married to/sleeping with multiple women and what god would think it’s OK for a woman to have to accept sharing her husband? Wow. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-mormon/162971/252 "2003-04-02T20:56:41Z")
Apparently one you don’t worship. Why are you so worried about it? ---
**Author:** ![djxiii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6f9a4e/32.png) [@djxiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/djxiii)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-mormon/162971/253 "2003-04-02T21:19:51Z")
The important thing is to remember **Birdgirl** is that the women who practiced polygamy did so willingly and only after much soul searching. Please take time to read the article I cited… it speaks volumes about how these women felt and it is very clear that they didn’t feel that it was unfair. You don’t agree, that’s fine. I think this is a hard doctrine even for the faithful and re-state that I doubt I could ever practice it. I’ve had enough of a struggle just making a relationship with one wonderful woman work. ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-mormon/162971/254 "2003-04-02T22:29:08Z")
Ok folks…listen up! Just talked with the **dolphin** , and she told me to tell you to stop the debating. Whether polygamy is wrong or right has no place here. It was a part of the LDS past. It is not a part of the LDS presently. Any debates shall be taken to Great Debates. Start your own thread. Keep it out of here. If you have a question about a particular part of the LDS religion, please, ask your question and a friendly Mormon will be along to answer it shortly. Or, in my case, an ex-mormon who refuses to argue in this thread. Last chance. This thread has received kudos from lots of Dopers about it’s no-nonsense way of handling questions. Please don’t make the mods lock or move this thread. One more time: This is NOT a debate forum! **cadolphin** will request the thread be locked if there is any more debating. ---
**Author:** ![cadolphin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c37758/32.png) [@cadolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cadolphin)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-mormon/162971/255 "2003-04-02T23:16:25Z")
> [@](#): > > This thread MUST remain an “Ask the” thread. If there is any hint whatsoever of it turning into a Great Debate or attack of any kind, I will stop responding and ask that it be locked. I am NOT a debater, never have been, never want to be! Let me make that perfectly clear. While I was away from the computer doing the research to answer a question with all the information required to put it in perspective, a few people choose to ignore one of my rules when I began this thread. When **Rico** told me what was going on, I asked him to relay a post to y’all from me. He did. I’m now in a position, I had hoped would not happen. Up until now, it has remained a QaA thread which is what I specified it would have to be. Although, I’ve gone to quite a bit of trouble this afternoon to do research so that I could answer the question I said I would come back with the facts on, since the GD started here, I’m not going to address it at this time. As I stated if that happened, I’d stop responding. So, that’s what I’m going to do for now. I **AM NOT** going to ask that the thread be locked immediately _ONLY_ because this thread has been very population. Several people have made positive comments throughout the forums about this thread and their appreciation for it. What I am going to do is to sit back and see if the GD continues or if it stops. I’m also going to be watching to see if there are other sincere questions regarding the Church. If the GD moves to the correct forum and no one else posts any “opinions” vs facts AND people continue to show a sincere interest in this thread, then I will resume providing the information requested. If anyone continues to post their personal opinions, I will ask this thread be locked. The ball is in your court now. Kathy ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-mormon/162971/256 "2003-04-03T00:36:58Z")
Now look who needs to chill! 😛 This has been an interseting thread, and there hasn’t been _that_ much debating. This is IMHO, after all. One must expect a little discussion about answers given here, I would think. Otherwise the forumwould be GQ, and would have been over many pages ago. In my opinion, anyway. Ok. To clarify my responses, I didn’t mean to belittle anyone’s replies. Many (most?) of the answers here rely on faith. I’ve studied the concept of faith, and to me it means you have to accept “God is because God say’s He is. If you want to know, it’s right there in the Book. His book.” No proof, or even common sense needed. I asked why God would make homosexuals, then condemn them. You all answered me. Thank you, but I _have_ heard these answers before. They’re the same in **tone** , that’s all I mean. There’s no insult in that. I am wasting your time, though, and not _really_ being convinced, so I’ll back out of this thread. And I’ll see you on the other side. 🙂 Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![j.c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@j.c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j.c)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-mormon/162971/257 "2003-04-03T01:17:29Z")
Rico, can I ask the post-mormon? What’s a post-mormon. I’ve never hard this term. (FYI - the two former but no longer Mormons I know hope to one day return to the church.) ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-mormon/162971/258 "2003-04-03T01:32:42Z")
**j.c.** , good question. In its most basic terms, I suppose you can intersperse the term with “ex-mormon.” I was raised LDS, served a mission for the church, but left the LDS church in my 20s. Reasons for my leaving will not be discussed here. The term “post-mormon” was coined because of the negative connotation that the prefix “ex-” has. I look at it this way, I’m in my “post-mormon” stage of my life, i.e. after Mormonism. Just a nicer way of saying it, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-mormon/162971/259 "2003-04-03T02:13:26Z")
I never heard the term either **Rico**. Maybe I’ll start using it, because I’m not comfortable with “ex” either. ---
**Author:** ![FatBaldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecd19e/32.png) [@FatBaldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FatBaldGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-mormon/162971/260 "2003-04-03T15:36:28Z")
FWIW, I happened to see a sign on the freeway the other day. This was one of the “Adopt-a-highway” signs that indicates the litter along the highway is being picked up by a specific group. In the south end of the Salt Lake valley (about 9500 S. for any Utahns reading this) there is a sign that says “Litter Control provided by Exmormons Foundation.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-mormon/162971.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-mormon/162971.md?page=14)