Don’t y’all realize how you activate our Skeptic-O-Meter when y’all admit that Wicca is an invented religion? I always thought that religion is supposedly something given to us, not made by us. I was always told that only God has the right and authority to use supernatural power (or that He alone has supernatural power) and that we should not take it upon ourselves to try to acquire and use it. If God sees fit to grant such power to others, that’s His decision to make, not ours.
(As you can perhaps see, it’s a single, simple step from believing that people have no ability to use the supernatural to believing the supernatural does not exist, which is what I believe.)
Um, I’m getting in on this a bit late here, missed the whole pit thing for the most part and all, but:
NO, NO, NO.
I can promise you that an antibiotic will work even on a patient who does not believe it will work. In fact, they are used on patients who are comatose and they work just as well on them too!
Science does not require your belief or faith for it to work.
Don’t y’all realize how you activate our Skeptic-O-Meter when y’all admit that Wicca is an invented religion?**
Yes, I realise that. On the other hand, I’m simply asking for the right to practice my faith in peace. I neither proselytize my faith nor demand it be “The One True Faith of the Land.” I don’t picket school demanding my faith be treated on an equal level with biology or physics. I simply practice is because it works for me. If you think I’m a looney tune, well, shrug that your problem not mine!
** I always thought that religion is supposedly something given to us, not made by us. I was always told that only God has the right and authority to use supernatural power (or that He alone has supernatural power) and that we should not take it upon ourselves to try to acquire and use it. If God sees fit to grant such power to others, that’s His decision to make, not ours.**
By the use of the word “He” I’m assuming you’re referring to the J/C/I god, correct? Yes, that’s true, or at least, that’s what’s been said, in His name. You can even look back into the record (primarily the Torah) and see that He has a dim view of anyone or anything challenging His power. That’s why there are so many regulations regarding the specific ways offerings to Him are to be made and why other types of magic and sorcery are outlawed, IMHO. I did a paper back in school, for my Phenomenology class on the treatment of magic by three different religions; Wicca, Buddhism and Christianity. Christianity (and its parental relgion, Judeism) views magic as purely the realm of God. Buddhism (at least some branches of it) see magic as an ability when one attains a rapport with Deity after proper meditation and other techniques. Wicca sees it as manipulation of the world around us thru supernatural forces that are accessible by humans. If you want a detailed explaination of this, read Magic, Science, Religion and the Scope of Rationality by Stanley Tambiah. He’s a respected scholar at Harvard.
I’m given to understand that it helps, however. I’d ask my mom the doctor if she weren’t in Europe, but I’ve heard tell of studies that show that the effectiveness of medical practice is increased the more a patient believes that the prognosis is positive.
Of course, any medical or nonmedical treatment will be more successful if the patient has faith in the doctor. When we trust, we are relaxed, and the body is able to heal itself better, providing that the treatment we are receiving is not actually harmful. It’s easy to see that muscular tension can inhibit blood flow, for instance, and that nervous worry can keep us from getting the sleep we need to heal.
As for invented vs. revealed religions: it might be charged that Mohammed invented Islam, but millions agree that the Koran is a direct revelation of God. Buddhism was established not on the revelation of any meta-human entity, but on Gautama Buddha’s experience of a truth transcending common understanding; Buddha’s knowledge is “supernatural” in this sense, and he is worshipped, but he never claimed divinity, and simply hoped to pass on to others his method of achieving knowledge.
The late Idries Shah believed that some of the traditions of witchcraft as encountered historically in Europe, and revived in modern Wicca (such as the institution of the coven) were adopted informally or naively from certain Sufi practices. See his book The Sufis, in which he also attributes a Sufi origin to the Tarot- it was supposedly a lightweight set of teaching aids that could be carried by a wandering Sufi teacher. Perhaps the game of Tarok was developed to soothe the suspicions of religious authorities. Heathen images? No, just a game, your worship.
You cast spells for money? So I’m going to ask the obvious, does it work for you? Even if it doesn’t materialize on the altar, are you running any lucky streaks on the lotery lately? Yous answer is appreciated.
P.S: Sorry for the hijack, anywhere we could take this?
Another Wiccan/Druid checking in.
Just wanted to comment on the unwilling target thing, and stay out of the rest of the other stuff going on.
Some believe in the law of three which was already mentioned, then there is an it harm none, and lastly you never do anything against anybodys free will.
Everyone, if you want to discuss the efficacy of magic, take it to the Does Magic Exist Thread, okay? We’re here to talk about Neo-Paganism. Thanks.
To start a bit of discussion, Neo-Pagans generally practice 8 holidays during the year. For those with a norhern European or Celtic background, the 4 major Holidays are:
Samhain, Imbolc, Beltane and Lughnasd, respectively on October 31st, Februrary 2nd, April 30th and August 1st. Samhain and Beltane are consider the really major holidays. On Samhain, Winter begins and the dark time of the year begins (literally and figuratively). This is the season of the God. For Beltane, it’s the bright time, Summer begins and it’s the Season of the Lady.
At Imbolc and Lughnasd, respectively, Spring and Fall begin. There’s hardly any record of what antique Pagans did during these Holidays, so much of what done is modern re-creations.
The other 4 Holidays are astronomical phenomenon; the 2 equinoxes and solstices. These and generally celebrated at mid-points during their respective season. Fall equinox is generally labelled Mabon while the Vernal equinox is labelled Ostara. The solstices are mid-Summer and mid-Winter (or often Yule) respectively.
So how do you know you’re doing it right? If you’re doing it wrong, how do you know that the gods and goddesses you worship will forgive you for it?**
Matt_mcl pretty much hit the nail on the head here. I’ll just add some of my own comments.
The idea of appeasing the Gods for fear of Their retribution is a foreign concept in Neo-Paganism. Modern Pagan rituals serve many purposes; to make the change of the seasons; to acknowledge our inter-connectedness with the world around us; honoring the Gods, in the sense of treating them like guests at a party. This is what Neo-Pagan rituals are about.
Many modern Pagans do research and try to uncover the fragments of antique Pagan practices and put them into a modern format. For example, it’s been documented that in Ireland, in ancient times, on Beltaine, all the fires were extinguished except for one, at the druid enclave at Isnach (not sure of the spelling, but that’s it phonetically). Then runners took torches, that were ignited in that fire, and carried them around Ireleand, re-kindling all the other fires. We believe this is a symbolic gesture of spreading the fire, a symbol of summer and the Goddess, across the land and officially starting the season.
My partner did this on May eve, dousing all the lights in the house. Then, we placed an unlit candle in each room and relit them from a bonfire we had in the backyard. Okay, it wasn’t a bonfire, but one built in the Weber grill, but it’s the symbology that’s important.
I think I said this before, but I’ll repeat it; Neo-Pagans interact with the Gods as if They are Big Brothers and Sisters to us; helping us learn and grow, especially spiritually. They’re not Beings to be feared, but teachers and helpers. Think of them as professors at a university and you’re taking an indepenent study course. They’ll help you out, but most of the work is up to you.
Samhain, Imbolc, Beltane, and Lughnasd are astronomical in origin as well. They’re cross-quarter days, half-way between the solstice and equinox or equinoix and soltistice.
Ummm, couldn’t you just like, ya know, cast a spell or something?
Seriously, if you are able to cast spells, why aren’t you living a life of relaxed luxury? You don’t have time to cast spells to make yourself rich? Can’t you see the irony here?
Ummm, couldn’t you just like, ya know, cast a spell or something?
Seriously, if you are able to cast spells, why aren’t you living a life of relaxed luxury? You don’t have time to cast spells to make yourself rich? Can’t you see the irony here?**
You’re confusing what we call magic with what you’ve seen on TV and in the movies. You’re thinking of “Samantha the Witch” who twitches her nose and re-arranges tons of matter and would requires millions of joules of energy. That’s fantasy and that’s not what we do.
To re-iterate, magic is not the point of Neo-Paganism. It’s seen as one tool to use. Think of it this way, Christians use prayer as a way of being closer to God; Neo-Pagans think of magic in the same way. (Assuming your Christian) why don’t you pray to God for lots of money so you could lead a life of luxuary?
Because unlike some others in this board, I have never claimed to have the power, through (Christian) prayer or (Pagan) ritual, to be able to cause physical occurrences. If I want more money that would allow me to live a life of luxury, I either bust my ass at work, find a job that pays more, follow Anna Nicole’s lead, rob a bank, or win the lottery.
There have been many different explanations on this thread as well as the other magick threads, from being able to cause physical changes to being able to control financial gain to simple meditation. FTR, I do believe that meditation helps focus the mind but has nothing to do with magic.
I posted this in the Pit thread, but I will post it here as well as I am not attacking but simply trying to understand the many differences in the numerous claims to magic.
I’m going to make this as simple as possible. Forget the Wiccan vs Pagan argument. Forget the differences in religious practices. Forget the Scientific explanations vs faith. Forget explaining the varying degrees such as simple meditation to all-out flame throwing. Forget who is not respecting another persons beliefs. Forget the debate of who should provide proof of the existence or non-existence. I’m not calling anyone names, I don’t even care what religion you are or are not. I just want simple answers to the following simple questions.
Can anyone give me an answer without flying off into left field or without throwing a hissy fit or claiming that I am intolerable?
Can you perform magic? Yes or no.
What can you do, specifically?
Are you able to perform magic that can be observed with the naked eye? (i.e. move objects)
What is your success rate of all magic performed?
What can you provide skeptics that shows this success rate is more than chance of the odds?
If I were there with you now, what could you show me that would make me a believer or at the very least persuade me to open my mind?
Can you perform magic that no one has been able to explain? What did you do?
Are you willing to take this power public and allow yourself to be tested by the skeptics? If not, why are you unwilling to gain respect from your critics by proving them wrong?
Can you perform magic that we can see here on the board?
If I assure you that I will keep an open mind, would you be willing to work with me or show me something that would prove your craft? If not, why?
