# Ask the organizer of the Ottawa Panhandlers' Union **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 1, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-organizer-of-the-ottawa-panhandlers-union/504982 "2009-08-01T16:53:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-organizer-of-the-ottawa-panhandlers-union/504982/81 "2009-08-02T05:19:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > So the panhandlers are effectively panhandling their dues from a socialist/anarchist union? A more perfect union could not be entered into. Ha! :D:p:)šŸ˜‰ So, thatā€™s what he meant by one paid member! Thus,in reality, thereā€™s no union at all, just the IWW using the homeless as a political tool? Gosh, how noble. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-organizer-of-the-ottawa-panhandlers-union/504982/82 "2009-08-02T05:25:54Z")
I think that the seeds of the I.W.W.ā€™s decline were sown in 1907, only a couple of years after it was founded. The Western Federation of Miners, which had been the leader of American unionism and had fought vigorously for a decade, was exhausted by 1905, so it tried to reach out to other unionists by forming the I.W.W. Immediately, there was a schism in the foundling I.W.W. between revolutionists and reformers, that resulted in the Western Federation of Miners leaving the I.W.W. in 1907 and jumping over to the AFL in 1910. That left the I.W.W. to the revolutionary fringe in the decade preceding the Bolshevik revolution in Russia. Needless to say, being revolutionary in the USA at the time or since then was not wise, given what most Americans thought of and continued to think of what was going on in Russia. (Want an eye opener? Have a look at how the Communist International was trying to persuade the I.W.W. to sign up in 1920: [History of the Communist International](http://www.marxists.org/history/international/comintern/sections/australia/iww/open-letter.htm) . With friends like that . . . .) Up here in the Great White North, the Canadian branch of the WFM, a.k.a. the Canadian Union of Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers, was the powerhouse of unionism, and not only made huge gains in mining, but also provided the support necessary for unionization of the textile industry in Montreal. Unfortunately for the Mine Mill here in Canada, the schism caught up with it when the AFL/CLC associated Steelworkers moved in, routinely calling the Mine Mill commies (although there were some communists early on in the Mine Mill, there were none of any significance by the time of the Mine Mill v. Steelworker riots in the 60s which finished the take-over), which eventually convinced most of the membership to dump Mine Mill. It leaves me wondering if the I.W.W. was not so intent on having a revolution back in 1907, then the Mine Mill would not have succumbed to the Steelworkers, and the I.W.W. would not have lost its influence and relevancy in Canada. As far as blaming the decline of the I.W.W. on government oppression goes (and yes, that oppression certainly happened), I donā€™t think it was the primary reason for the decline, but rather the decline was that people in the USA and in Canada simply did not want a revolution. They saw what was happening in the Soviet Union, and did not want the same for themselves. Thus the labour movement grew through the AFL/CIO/CLC rather than through the I.W.W./Big One Union. I expect that your OPU will suffer the same fate. As long as it can be patted on the head by the powers that be, it will be tolerated, and hopefully will make some grounds in improving the lot of street people in Ottawa. If, however, it makes much ado about a revolution while antagonizing the powers that be, I doubt if it will garner the public support necessary to make significant changes, condemning itself to the margins, just as the I.W.W. did over one-hundred years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-organizer-of-the-ottawa-panhandlers-union/504982/83 "2009-08-02T05:40:46Z")
Come to think of it, the I.W.W. does have a legacy here in Canada. During its heyday, itā€™s Canadian headquarters were in Port Arthur at the Finlandia Club, which is a community hall that still stands and is very active. Today itā€™s basement is where you can get the best Finnish pancakes in town (well, the Scan would debate that), at a restaurant that started as a workerā€™s co-op. And yes, buskers frequent the sidewalk outside. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-organizer-of-the-ottawa-panhandlers-union/504982/84 "2009-08-02T05:46:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Thus,in reality, thereā€™s no union at all, just the IWW using the homeless as a political tool? Gosh, how noble. I donā€™t know if Iā€™d call helping street people improve their lot ā€œusing the homeless as a political tool.ā€ The I.W.W. (and the Canadan Mine Mill) were always community focused, not just employment focused. For example, the Mine Mill provided summer family camps and several community activities and services ā€“ not the sort of thing that one would usually associate with labour unions. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-organizer-of-the-ottawa-panhandlers-union/504982/85 "2009-08-02T05:50:59Z")
Well said, lexi. Thanks for explaining some of the barriers faced by street people. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-organizer-of-the-ottawa-panhandlers-union/504982/86 "2009-08-02T05:56:16Z")
SmashTheState, do you work with a police liason officer, and if not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-organizer-of-the-ottawa-panhandlers-union/504982/87 "2009-08-02T06:12:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, how many dues paying members of the Ottawa Panhandlersā€™ Union? > > Hereā€™s what wiki sez "\*The Ottawa Panhandlersā€™ Union (French: Syndicat des clochards dā€™Ottawa) is a trade union for panhandlers formed in Ottawa, Canada in early 2003. It is a shop of the Industrial Workers of the World (IWW), Ottawa-Outaouis General Members Branch. The union purports to gather together panhandlers, street vendors, and buskers, to fight for their rights as a collective. The OPU maintains that these people are being unfairly persecuted in Ontario. > > [edit] Structure and character > > The organization is largely a collaborative effort by lead organizer, IWW delegate and spokesperson Andrew Nellis,[1] Jane Scharf, and other long time anti-poverty Ottawa activists. One of the main pieces of legislation which motivated activists to form the Panhandlerā€™s Union was the Safe Streets Act.[2] Other pieces of legislation objected to include the Vending on Highways Law, passed by Ottawa City Hall. Aside from one of its members, the panhandlersā€™ union dues are paid for by the Industrial Workers of the World through donations and various organized events.[3]\* > > Do you know Andrew Nellis? Same question, **SmashTheState** -How many actual dues-paying members does the O.P.U. have? Are panhandlers sponsored individually? If not, how do you determine which panhandlers are members in good standing, and which arenā€™t? Does the I.W.W. control the O.P.U. in any way, seeing as how they sponsor it _and_ supply the leadership for it? ---
**Author:** ![LunarPlexus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@LunarPlexus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LunarPlexus)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-organizer-of-the-ottawa-panhandlers-union/504982/88 "2009-08-02T06:33:31Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > You may disagree or come to different conclusions, but for me, the use of ā€˜kā€™ is a moral issue, and a symbol of my resistance to authority. Sounds kosher to me. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-organizer-of-the-ottawa-panhandlers-union/504982/89 "2009-08-02T06:45:32Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > This is simply false. The old Rent Control Act was abolished, but because it was replaced by the Tenant Protection Act, which included rent control measures. I was renting throughout the Harris administration, so believe me, I was acutely aware of rent control limits (and this stuff can be very easily found on the 'net.) There has not been a single day in my lifetime, and probably not in yours, in which Ontario did not have substantial rent control. You can argue the TPA was worse for renters and made rent control less stringent, but rent control remained all the same. Your statement that Harris ā€œcompletely removed rent controls in Ontarioā€ is a plain falsehood beyond any doubt or question. > > One can make a serious case that Harris was a bad Premier, especially with regard to the across-the-board welfare cuts, which were mean-spirited and not, in the long run, of any fiscal benefit to the province whatsoever. But just making stuff up does not help your case. SmashTheState, you should have a look at the Tenant Protection Act of 1998. As you will see from it, rent control was not tossed out the window. Ordinary rent was only permitted to increase a small amount each year. What the act did was make it possible for landlords to pass on extraordinary maintenance expenses to their tenants, and for landlords to charge market rent to new tenants, rather than to peg the new tenantsā€™ rent to the previous tenantā€™s rent. The net result was to make it possible for landlords to not lose money on their buildings, which then led to more buildings becoming available for rental, which in turn helped keep the cost of renting down. If you want to hammer Harris (always a good thing to do IMHO), donā€™t say that he stopped rent control, for that is not true. Instead, you might wish to tell us how he cut funding for the creation of new social housing. I donā€™t recall the figures off hand, but I do recall that his cuts were significant. (Disclosure: I sit on a tribunal that reviews decisions by authorities who tossed people out of social housing or who would not let people into social housing.) As Rick says, making stuff up does not help your case, and in any event, before you smash the state, it might help if you know what it is that you are smashing. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-organizer-of-the-ottawa-panhandlers-union/504982/90 "2009-08-02T06:47:14Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > SmashTheState, do you work with a police liason officer, and if not, why not? Probably because someone with the name SmashTheState and an admitted resistance to authority isnā€™t going to mesh well with police. That and insomnia. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-organizer-of-the-ottawa-panhandlers-union/504982/91 "2009-08-02T07:00:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Same question, **SmashTheState** -How many actual dues-paying members does the O.P.U. have? Are panhandlers sponsored individually? If not, how do you determine which panhandlers are members in good standing, and which arenā€™t? Does the I.W.W. control the O.P.U. in any way, seeing as how they sponsor it _and_ supply the leadership for it? I think that focusing on paid or sponsored union membership numbers is meaningless, for the OPU is not and cannot be a trade union under Ontario law: ["ā€œtrade unionā€ means an organization of employees formed for purposes that include the regulation of relations between employees and employers . . .](http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_95l01_e.htm)" What might be more useful is to ask how many street people self-idenitfy themselves as being associated with the OPU, how many street people are there in Ottawa in total, and how many representatives of the I.W.W. are there in Ottawa associated with the OPU. Really its just another social organization trying to do good works, not a trade union at all, despite it being supported by an international trade union and despite it calling itself a union. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-organizer-of-the-ottawa-panhandlers-union/504982/92 "2009-08-02T07:02:32Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Probably because someone with the name SmashTheState and an admitted resistance to authority isnā€™t going to mesh well with police. That and insomnia. Thatā€™s the second time in this thread that you have made me laugh too hard for my own good. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-organizer-of-the-ottawa-panhandlers-union/504982/93 "2009-08-02T07:03:53Z")
Some folks like to protest. Some folks need someone to speak for them. Think of the I.W.W. as a dating service for this sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-organizer-of-the-ottawa-panhandlers-union/504982/94 "2009-08-02T07:15:19Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Eventually, it culminated one day in a bunch of us spontaneously invading city hall and setting up camp right outside the mayorā€™s door. They hadnā€™t expected us for the simple reason that we hadnā€™t planned it. In the finest insurrectionist traditions. we acted on the spur of the moment. They threatened us, but we refused to back down. They were trapped in their offices. They couldnā€™t leave, and they wouldnā€™t let us enter. We used a megaphone, chanted, and sang, totally disrupting the usual silent inefficiency of city hall. In the end, the mayor agreed to meet a delegation from the camp to hear our complaints and our demands. > > Days later, a delegation from the camp, consisting entirely of homeless youth and panhandlers, had their meeting with the mayor. Whithn a few weeks of arriving in my city, I made an appointment and met with the mayor to discuss some concerns. It never occurred to me to storm his office. Different strokes for different folks, but Iā€™d have to say although a squeeky wheel gets the grease, it is vital to maintain a working relationship with politicians if you want to have them do what you want. Be part of the state rather than smash the state. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-organizer-of-the-ottawa-panhandlers-union/504982/95 "2009-08-02T08:08:40Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Some folks like to protest. > > Some folks need someone to speak for them. > > Think of the I.W.W. as a dating service for this sort of thing. Iā€™m going to have to remember and use that. šŸ˜‰ Though I am missing the parties of my IWW fetishist friends. šŸ˜‰ One at the Brecht forum. šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-organizer-of-the-ottawa-panhandlers-union/504982/96 "2009-08-02T09:53:59Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Iā€™ve mentioned this in other threads, but Iā€™ll give you a brief synopsis. Itā€™s a personal decision, made for the same reason I use the spelling of Amerika, Mexiko, Republikan Party, Demokratic Party, and so on: I wish to emphasize that these social constructs have their basis in fascism. Do you do this in official OPU literature and communications, and if so, do you care how it makes you look to the mainstream population? Also, what do you do about panhandlers who feel that the best way to get spare change is to harass and intimidate people? Are they removed from the organization or do you look the other way because theyā€™re freaking out the squares? ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-organizer-of-the-ottawa-panhandlers-union/504982/97 "2009-08-02T11:48:05Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Iā€™ve mentioned this in other threads, but Iā€™ll give you a brief synopsis. Itā€™s a personal decision, made for the same reason I use the spelling of Amerika, Mexiko, Republikan Party, Demokratic Party, and so on: I wish to emphasize that these social constructs have their basis in fascism. > > I donā€™t use the term ā€œfascismā€ lightly or figuratively. Fascism has its origins in ancient Rome, where the fasces was the symbol of authority. The fasces was a symbolic phallus (indeed, ā€œfascinumā€ was latin slang for penis) constructed from an axe with a bundle of sticks bound tightly to the handle. This symbolized the strength and might of the State, created through the unity and conformity of the people, bound rigidly with ropes of authority. Later, Mussolini defined modern fascism as rule through the combined strength of State and industry. In this sense, modern nations and political parties are all grounded in fascist ideology, the idea that strength is created through the procrustean amputation of the individual to a regulation size and shape. > > You may disagree or come to different conclusions, but for me, the use of ā€˜kā€™ is a moral issue, and a symbol of my resistance to authority. Thanks for answering. Iā€™m more interested in why the ā€œcā€ gets changed, as opposed to other letters. Is it a convenience issue, since the bodies you mentioned happen to have ā€œcā€ in their name? Or is it specifically something to do with the ā€œkuhā€ sound? Do other letters get substituted when you write the names of bodies without a ā€œcā€? Italy? Germany? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-organizer-of-the-ottawa-panhandlers-union/504982/98 "2009-08-02T12:02:08Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Itā€™s a personal decision, made for the same reason I use the spelling of Amerika, Mexiko, Republikan Party, Demokratic Party, and so on: I wish to emphasize that these social constructs have their basis in fascism. > . . . . > You may disagree or come to different conclusions, but for me, the use of ā€˜kā€™ is a moral issue, and a symbol of my resistance to authority. Well that helps explain [KAG/Kanada](http://www.kagkanada.com/). Oh, wait a minute, arenā€™t Klingons both authoritarians and facists? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-organizer-of-the-ottawa-panhandlers-union/504982/99 "2009-08-02T12:50:09Z")
> [@Southern\_Yankee](#): > > Thanks for answering. Iā€™m more interested in why the ā€œcā€ gets changed, as opposed to other letters. Is it a convenience issue, since the bodies you mentioned happen to have ā€œcā€ in their name? Or is it specifically something to do with the ā€œkuhā€ sound? Do other letters get substituted when you write the names of bodies without a ā€œcā€? Italy? Germany? In general, the hard C in Canadian aboriginal languages tends to be transliterated as K. For example: the Ottawa suburb Kanata, which is the same word as Canada, meaning ā€œvilliageā€. The name, however you spell it, comes from theSt. Lawrence Iroquoian word that means villiage. Cartier took it to mean the whole darn continent, thus the second largest nation in the world is named ā€œvilliageā€. (Translation errors like that have led to no end of Indian land claims problems. And ā€œIndianā€, being a defined termin the Indian Act, remains a misnomer as well.) Canada is [spelled with a K](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kanada) by quite a few different languages, which when you think about it makes sense, for Canada should be pronounded Kanada rather than Sanada. Spelling it with K eliminates ambigulity. Its a bit ironic that a person wanting to stand out from the herd has chosen to use the more traditional and more internationally recognized ā€œKā€ spelling. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-organizer-of-the-ottawa-panhandlers-union/504982/100 "2009-08-02T14:48:14Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Its a bit ironic that a person wanting to stand out from the herd has chosen to use the more traditional and more internationally recognized ā€œKā€ spelling. Oh, Krap! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-organizer-of-the-ottawa-panhandlers-union/504982.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-organizer-of-the-ottawa-panhandlers-union/504982.md?page=6)