# Ask the Orthodox Jew/ Amateur theologian **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 13, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-orthodox-jew-amateur-theologian/492991 "2009-04-13T21:52:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-orthodox-jew-amateur-theologian/492991/61 "2009-04-21T21:40:58Z")
Why does the study of Qabbalah require that you wait until you are 40? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-orthodox-jew-amateur-theologian/492991/62 "2009-04-21T21:58:21Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Why does the study of Qabbalah require that you wait until you are 40? Because “40 is the age of wisdom.” It’s a reaction to the whole Shabbatai Zevi thing. Nathan of Gaza used kaballistic teachings to support the whole Sabbatean movement, and there was a feeling afterwards that misinterpretation of kabbalah led to the bad theology that made Shabbatai and his movement possible. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-orthodox-jew-amateur-theologian/492991/63 "2009-04-21T22:14:26Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > How did the establishment of Israel affect this part of the prophecy? I know that some Jewish sects saw it as anathemous- was it because of this part of the prophecy (i.e. only the Messiah should do this)? Also, have the prophecies been reinterpreted in the past 2 generations now that Israel exists again- is this marked off as “done” or is it believed the Messiah will call home to Israel the rest of the Jews? (And if so, could you please start with Joan and Melissa Rivers?) The conflict stems from a passage in the Talmud about the Jews swearing oaths as they went into exile. Apparently, the Jews said that they wouldn’t try to force the redemption, on the condition that the surrounding gentiles wouldn’t kill them. Something like that, anyway. A lot of Hassidic and Hareidi groups take this to mean that only the Messiah can ever establish a Jewish state in Israel, and that it has to be a theocracy. They see Israel as corrupt, secular, and a bad mistake. The Satmar Hassidim especially are known for being anti-Zionist. Modern Orthodox Jews (and Lubavitch Hassidim, and probably some others) point out that the aforementioned oath was conditional. The goyim have been trying their best to kill us throughout history, so we’re off the hook for this one. They see modern Israel as a good start. (The Prayer for the State of Israel specifically refers to the country as “The first shoots of our redemption”). It’s not perfect- even the most fervent Zionist realizes that- but with work we could make something of it. I think the idea is that the current country of Israel isn’t the Messianic kingdom we’ve all been waiting for, but that it’s a sign of things to come. (Other signs include feminism, nuclear weapons, and tension between Arabs and Christians. And possibly space travel). > [@](#): > > All of them? Or just the Jewish (and presumably the righteous Jews at that) dead? What about those who died in the Holocaust whose bodies were cremated by the Nazis- can they be resurrected? (Honest question, though it may seem argumentative or rhetorical.) Everyone. There is some sort of meta-Judgement Day, and then the really bad people get unresurrected. Or something like that. As you said, two Jews, three opinions. I presume cremated people are no harder to put back together than, say, someone whose bones have completely rotten, or someone who was eaten by an animal. Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan has a fascinating essay where he suggests the Ressurection might be done through cloning. I don’t remember which of his books it was in. He cites various traditional sources to come up with the following scenario: the science of cloning is perfected. The messiah, or righteous scientists, or someone, is prophectically told the DNA sequence of Random Dead Guy. He clones the Random Dead Guy. God supplies Random Dead Guy’s soul, and there you go. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-orthodox-jew-amateur-theologian/492991/64 "2009-04-21T22:15:48Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > A bit more frivolous a question- but still an honest one- I was surprised to learn ([from this clip from the Topol movie Sallah Shabati](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ5ZjGpksI4)) that Maschiach is used as a given name among some Jews. Is this common? Or are there any taboos against it by the more orthodox? First I’ve heard of anyone with that name. I can’t think of anything wrong with it, but naming your kid “Messiah” sounds a bit weird. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-orthodox-jew-amateur-theologian/492991/65 "2009-04-21T22:16:14Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Because “40 is the age of wisdom.” It’s a reaction to the whole Shabbatai Zevi thing. Nathan of Gaza used kaballistic teachings to support the whole Sabbatean movement, and there was a feeling afterwards that misinterpretation of kabbalah led to the bad theology that made Shabbatai and his movement possible. Heh, ok, well you answered my question with stuff I don’t know anything about. What is Shabbatai Zevi, who is Nathan of Gaza? ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-orthodox-jew-amateur-theologian/492991/66 "2009-04-21T22:28:35Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Why does the study of Qabbalah require that you wait until you are 40? Like **Captain Amazing** said. You’re supposed to be mature and grounded before you study the reality behind reality. There are stories in the Talmud about rabbis who studied mysticism and went insane, or died, or became apostates. Not all kabbala is of the deep-mystical-deepness variety. Kabbala Lite would be saying something like “[There are ten divine attributes manifesting in four worlds](http://www.chabad.org/search/keyword_cdo/kid/1544/jewish/Sefirot.htm)”; deep kabbala would involve spending years delving into what exactly ‘kingship’, ‘foundation’ and ‘knowledge’ mean. Kabbala, like philosophy, is not for the weak-minded. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-orthodox-jew-amateur-theologian/492991/67 "2009-04-21T22:37:36Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Heh, ok, well you answered my question with stuff I don’t know anything about. What is Shabbatai Zevi, who is Nathan of Gaza? Shabbatai Zvi was seventeenth century man who had about half the Jewish world convinced he was the Messiah. Nathan of Gaza was his sidekick. By all accounts, Shabbatai Zvi was a few sandwiches short of a picnic. To make a very long and bizarre story short, in 1666 he came up with the bright idea of going to Instanbul and converting the Sultan to Judaism. The Sultan was not amused. He imprisoned Shabbatai, who converted to Islam to save his skin. The whole sorry mess left the Jews disillusioned and rather traumatized. Many people had sold all their worldly possesions in the belief that they would be magically transported to Israel. A bunch of people figured that if their messiah converted, there was no point in staying Jewish. A sorry affair for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-orthodox-jew-amateur-theologian/492991/68 "2009-04-21T22:50:43Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > The whole sorry mess left the Jews disillusioned and rather traumatized. Many people had sold all their worldly possesions in the belief that they would be magically transported to Israel. A bunch of people figured that if their messiah converted, there was no point in staying Jewish. A sorry affair for everyone. The strangest part of the story to me is the donmeh (who I’ve often wondered since first learning of them _if_ they really exist). When Jews were ordered to either convert to Islam or leave the Ottoman Empire, many chose conversion, _but_ they secretly retained their Judaism. By day they would observe the Muslim rituals, at night they’d practice Judaism and speak Hebrew. (The fact that Islamic and Jewish dietary restrictions and other laws are similar probably helps this much more than if they lived in a Christian country.) Many of the converts later left Istanbul/the Empire as well (many for Amsterdam) and either resumed their open Judaism or didn’t. As for the others, I have no trouble seeing how this could last for years or even a generation or two, but supposedly there are some families who have kept up this dual and secret identity for 350 years now. They tend to marry only within their own religious community- a near necessity if the ruse is to be affected. ETA: [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donmeh) ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-orthodox-jew-amateur-theologian/492991/69 "2009-04-21T23:02:47Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > I can’t think of anything wrong with it, but naming your kid “Messiah” sounds a bit weird. No parental expectations or pressure there. ---
**Author:** ![trapezoidal\_jellyfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6f9a4e/32.png) [@trapezoidal\_jellyfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trapezoidal_jellyfish)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-orthodox-jew-amateur-theologian/492991/70 "2009-04-22T01:11:33Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > First I’ve heard of anyone with that name. I can’t think of anything wrong with it, but naming your kid “Messiah” sounds a bit weird. I’ve heard of it, but I think it’s done mostly in \*Sephardic families and not that frequently. \*Jews originally from Spain and Portugal. Sometimes the term is also used to refer to those from North Africa and the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-orthodox-jew-amateur-theologian/492991/71 "2009-04-22T02:22:46Z")
> [@trapezoidal\_jellyfish](#): > > I’ve heard of it, but I think it’s done mostly in \*Sephardic families and not that frequently. > > \*Jews originally from Spain and Portugal. Sometimes the term is also used to refer to those from North Africa and the Middle East. The movie _Sallah Shabati_ is actually a comedy about a Sephardic Jew (Moroccan I believe) played by Topol and the culture clash with the Ashkenazy when he emigrates to Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-orthodox-jew-amateur-theologian/492991/72 "2009-04-22T03:08:41Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > By all accounts, Shabbatai Zvi was a few sandwiches short of a picnic. He was probably severely manic depressive. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-orthodox-jew-amateur-theologian/492991/73 "2009-04-22T12:50:46Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > To make a very long and bizarre story short, in 1666 he came up with the bright idea of going to Instanbul and converting the Sultan to Judaism. The Sultan was not amused. He imprisoned Shabbatai, who converted to Islam to save his skin. This is incorrect. The Sultan had SZ arrested in Smyrna. It was not SZ’s idea to go there. > [@Sampiro](#): > > The strangest part of the story to me is the donmeh (who I’ve often wondered since first learning of them _if_ they really exist). When Jews were ordered to either convert to Islam or leave the Ottoman Empire, many chose conversion, _but_ they secretly retained their Judaism. By day they would observe the Muslim rituals, at night they’d practice Judaism and speak Hebrew. I believe this is all incorrect, and you seem to be conflating Marranos/Conversos (in Christian Spain) with the Doenmeh in the Ottoman Empire. No one forced these guys to convert. They did it to imitate SZ, whose conversion they interpreted as being part of some kabbalistic aspect of the Jewish religion. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-orthodox-jew-amateur-theologian/492991/74 "2009-04-22T14:42:51Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > This is incorrect. The Sultan had SZ arrested in Smyrna. It was not SZ’s idea to go there. Okay, but he definately tried to convert the Sultan. Bad move. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-orthodox-jew-amateur-theologian/492991/75 "2009-04-22T15:13:53Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > Okay, but he definately tried to convert the Sultan. Bad move. I don’t think this is true either. (That he tried to convert the Sultan, that is. I agree that it would have been a bad move. :)) ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-orthodox-jew-amateur-theologian/492991/76 "2009-04-22T15:16:45Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > Qualifications for messianicship: > > 1. He has to be, well, a he. (Apparently all the past mini-redemptions were brought about by women, so I guess it’s the guys’ turn). > 2. He has to be descended from King David. > 3. He has to be a generally decent and righteous person. > 4. He will be a charismatic, well-regarded leader. > 5. He will be the first prophet in, oh, about two millenia or so. Shouldn’t “is a Jew” be in there somewhere? ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-orthodox-jew-amateur-theologian/492991/77 "2009-04-22T17:42:02Z")
:smack: Right. Be a Jew. ---
**Author:** ![tarragon918](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d26b3c/32.png) [@tarragon918](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tarragon918)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-orthodox-jew-amateur-theologian/492991/78 "2009-04-22T18:49:39Z")
LOL thanks for the explanation, **Malleus, Incus, Stapes!**. It’s all so very interesting to me. Another thing I thought of - I realize the ultra conservative Jewish women either cover their hair with scarves or wigs. Is it just ultra conservative that do that, or do other orthodox women follow that too? ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-orthodox-jew-amateur-theologian/492991/79 "2009-04-22T19:06:17Z")
Most Orthodox Jewish women cover their hair after they get married- either with a scarf, a wig, or a snood. OH, and forget what I said about Shabbatai Tzi- I think I remembered the story wrong. Still really crazy, though. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-orthodox-jew-amateur-theologian/492991/80 "2009-04-22T19:06:50Z")
Along with the married woman hair thing…A Reform friend attended a funeral. Her Orthodox Aunt’s had stubble showing under their scarves. This may be TMI, but are they forbidden shaving their hair as a male relative could not shave? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-orthodox-jew-amateur-theologian/492991.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-orthodox-jew-amateur-theologian/492991.md?page=5)