# Ask the pacifist **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 11, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006 "2013-10-11T17:45:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/261 "2013-10-15T18:39:18Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > I’m just jumping off your post to respond to Ravenman, who seems to think it is far fetched to believe that if I saw someone harming my child, I can predict my response pretty accurately at least as far as saying I will attack the threat. If you start an “Ask the [blank]” and someone asks you that question, that’s a perfectly fine answer for you. But this thread has literally nothing to do with what you would do in such a situation, and I think there’s been a tendency in this thread toward a pile-on for no reason whatsoever. It’s clear **Czarcasm** isn’t trying to get a rise out of people with his answers, and he has been remarkably consistent. Like on the first page, he wrote: > [@](#): > > I don’t know if it would be o.k. I wouldn’t want them to harm another, and I couldn’t harm another…but realities usually trump realities, don’t they? I can only tell you what I think I would want. And then he’s asked the same question a dozen more times. > [@Living Well Is Best Revenge](#): > > However, that is not his answer nor close to it. I think the quote from the first page is in plain language, and pretty damn close to how I summarized his position. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/262 "2013-10-15T18:39:28Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Plus, I find the “what would you do if someone held a gun to your loved ones’ head” question to be nothing but trite. That’s not really the scenarios being given though. More like someone is beating your loved one with their fists and you are standing there holding a gun, refusing to act, or throwing the gun away as you run for help. Evil prevailing because good men do nothing and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/263 "2013-10-15T18:43:18Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > That’s not really the scenarios being given though. More like someone is beating your loved one with their fists and you are standing there holding a gun, refusing to act, or throwing the gun away as you run for help. Evil prevailing because good men do nothing and all that. And you can’t think of any other solutions than to either shoot someone(endangering your loved one) or running away? What about pulling the assailant away from your loved one and allowing her/him to get away while you hold the perpetrator? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/264 "2013-10-15T18:46:20Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > That’s not really the scenarios being given though. More like someone is beating your loved one with their fists and you are standing there holding a gun, refusing to act, or throwing the gun away as you run for help. Evil prevailing because good men do nothing and all that. How many times in a six page thread do you need the pacifist to answer this question? Will his answer become any more clear on page 10? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/265 "2013-10-15T18:50:22Z")
Using violence to stop violence really shouldn’t be the first option, if other options are available. Just my humble opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/266 "2013-10-15T18:51:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And you can’t think of any other solutions than to either shoot someone(endangering your loved one) or running away? What about pulling the assailant away from your loved one and allowing her/him to get away while you hold the perpetrator? Consider the perpetrator is big and strong, you are you, or a female, but you or she is armed with a Glock. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/267 "2013-10-15T18:52:55Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > How many times in a six page thread do you need the pacifist to answer this question? Will his answer become any more clear on page 10? I was responding to your mischaracterization of the hypotheticals. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/268 "2013-10-15T18:56:14Z")
I can buy that **Czarcasm** wouldn’t bash the guy’s head in, but he’s already said he would fight him- even if he didn’t know it. If he pulls the guy away, the guy will fight back. **Czar** may not punch him, but he’s probably going to instinctively try and grab the guys arms/hands to prevent himself from being overpowered. That’s fighting. It’s not the best way to fight, in most circumstances, but it’s definitely fighting. So, by his own statements, **Czarcasm** would fight the guy- he just wouldn’t fight to kill. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/269 "2013-10-15T18:56:47Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Consider the perpetrator is big and strong, you are you, or a female, but you or she is armed with a Glock. Arming me isn’t going to accomplish anything. If the perpetrator is armed, then hopefully my loved one gets away, and I don’t die from gunshot wounds. Like I said before: While there is nothing that I can kill for, there are causes that I would willingly die for. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/270 "2013-10-15T18:59:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I can buy that **Czarcasm** wouldn’t bash the guy’s head in, but he’s already said he would fight him- even if he didn’t know it. If he pulls the guy away, the guy will fight back. **Czar** may not punch him, but he’s probably going to instinctively try and grab the guys arms/hands to prevent himself from being overpowered. That’s fighting. It’s not the best way to fight, in most circumstances, but it’s definitely fighting. > > So, by his own statements, **Czarcasm** would fight the guy- he just wouldn’t fight to kill. Word games now? I’ve made it pretty clear what I mean by not fighting, but if you want to stretch the definition to “prove” me wrong, there’s not much I can do to stop you. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/271 "2013-10-15T19:03:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Arming me isn’t going to accomplish anything. If the perpetrator is armed, then hopefully my loved one gets away, and I don’t die from gunshot wounds. Like I said before: While there is nothing that I can kill for, there are causes that I would willingly die for. Your armed the perpetrator isn’t, and when you try and pull him away he’s going to take your gun from you and kill both you and your loved one, and who knows who else down the line. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/272 "2013-10-15T19:10:19Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Your armed the perpetrator isn’t, and when you try and pull him away he’s going to take your gun from you and kill both you and your loved one, and who knows who else down the line. Why would I be carrying a gun I wouldn’t be able to use? You keep trying elements into these scenarios that just don’t make any sense when it comes to my participation. I wouldn’t have a gun in my hand, so there would be no gun for him to take away. I told you how I would act in such an unlikely scenario-can we just move on now? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/273 "2013-10-15T19:11:57Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Your armed the perpetrator isn’t, and when you try and pull him away he’s going to take your gun from you and kill both you and your loved one, and who knows who else down the line. And is the aggressor dressed in a Nazi uniform? And is he smoking a cigarette near this defenseless child? And maybe he has no seatbelts in his car? And he ripped the tags off his mattress when he was told not to? And he was wearing white after Labor Day? And he killed Inigo Montoya’s father? And he heckles comedians in night clubs? Come on, just add a few more conditions to a fabricated scenario, and I’m sure you’ll get the answer you want. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/274 "2013-10-15T19:13:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Using violence to stop violence really shouldn’t be the first option, if other options are available. Just my humble opinion. Wrong forum! Save your opinions for IMHO. This is MPSIMS, where we kick small stones in the dirt over and over while mumbling under our breath. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/275 "2013-10-15T19:20:10Z")
Sorry if this has been asked already But could you play a sport like football or wrestling? Sure, superficially it is physical and violent but most people leave it on the field. After the game, the players can shake hands and be friends again. Everyone learns and grows from the experience. Would you think that worthy of participation? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/276 "2013-10-15T19:23:14Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Sorry if this has been asked already > > But could you play a sport like football or wrestling? Sure, superficially it is physical and violent but most people leave it on the field. After the game, the players can shake hands and be friends again. Everyone learns and grows from the experience. Would you think that worthy of participation? I suspect not…but since I wasn’t allowed to participate in extracurricular activities(for reasons best left for another thread), that is the only answer I can give you. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/277 "2013-10-15T19:27:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why would I be carrying a gun I wouldn’t be able to use? You keep trying elements into these scenarios that just don’t make any sense when it comes to my participation. I wouldn’t have a gun in my hand, so there would be no gun for him to take away. I told you how I would act in such an unlikely scenario-can we just move on now? Right, for you in particular, you would be unable to save your loved one. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/278 "2013-10-15T19:29:53Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > And is the aggressor dressed in a Nazi uniform? And is he smoking a cigarette near this defenseless child? And maybe he has no seatbelts in his car? And he ripped the tags off his mattress when he was told not to? And he was wearing white after Labor Day? And he killed Inigo Montoya’s father? And he heckles comedians in night clubs? > > Come on, just add a few more conditions to a fabricated scenario, and I’m sure you’ll get the answer you want. The hypotheticals are just to show situations where force is necessary for the greater good. Those kinds of things do happen in real life. I gave a link to a pretty similar scenario earlier. Here it is again: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/s1-Kz3vU5DY/hqdefault.jpg "Okla. Woman Shoots, Kills Intruder 911 Operators Say It's OK to Shoot - ABC News.mp4") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1-Kz3vU5DY) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/279 "2013-10-15T19:31:45Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Right, for you in particular, you would be unable to save your loved one. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/280 "2013-10-15T19:40:52Z")
Getting back to the topic of this thread: As I said before, I don’t participate in active protests as much because I’ve dedicated my off-work time to working at a local food pantry. In your opinion, does this somehow make me less of a pacifist? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006.md?page=15)