# Ask the pacifist **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 11, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006 "2013-10-11T17:45:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/301 "2013-10-16T13:20:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Word games now? I’ve made it pretty clear what I mean by not fighting, but if you want to stretch the definition to “prove” me wrong, there’s not much I can do to stop you. I’m not trying to prove you wrong- I think you’ve been consistent. I just think what you describe is clearly fighting. “Not fighting” means either running away without being touched or doing nothing… anything that results in a physical struggle is fighting- whether you are fighting to break free so you can run away, fighting to wrest a weapon from his hands, fighting to keep yourself between a bad guy and his victim, or fighting to prevent him from getting close to a baby he wants to hurt. I still think you’re a pacifist. I just think you’re a pacifist who is, in fact, willing to fight in certain circumstances- just not willing to kill (or harm beyond scrapes and bruises). As are most pacifists. Very, very few people (perhaps none) would offer no physical struggle in those circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/302 "2013-10-16T13:24:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No, because even during the boxing lesson all I could do was block. And get hit. And wake up wondering what the hell happened. Could you punch a punching bag? Is it possible that you are misremembering and you really could punch, but were just a bad athlete and scared and just lost real bad? And did you really get knocked out as a kid? I don’t remember seeing that very much in youth boxing, especially with beginners. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/303 "2013-10-16T14:16:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m not trying to prove you wrong- I think you’ve been consistent. I just think what you describe is clearly fighting. “Not fighting” means either running away without being touched or doing nothing… anything that results in a physical struggle is fighting- whether you are fighting to break free so you can run away, fighting to wrest a weapon from his hands, fighting to keep yourself between a bad guy and his victim, or fighting to prevent him from getting close to a baby he wants to hurt. > > I still think you’re a pacifist. I just think you’re a pacifist who is, in fact, willing to fight in certain circumstances- just not willing to kill (or harm beyond scrapes and bruises). As are most pacifists. Very, very few people (perhaps none) would offer no physical struggle in those circumstances. Can we agree to disagree on the definition of “fighting”? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/304 "2013-10-16T14:22:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can we agree to disagree on the definition of “fighting”? I’ll fight you for it 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/305 "2013-10-16T14:24:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ll fight you for it 🙂 I’d rather we just flip a coin. I just happen to have a silver dollar in my pocket… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/306 "2013-10-16T14:41:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’d rather we just flip a coin. I just happen to have a silver dollar in my pocket… That’s my silver dollar, so I’ll just reach into your pocket and take it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/307 "2013-10-16T14:44:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s my silver dollar, so I’ll just reach into your pocket and take it. Not unless you buy me dinner first. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/308 "2013-10-16T16:14:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Not unless you buy me dinner first. Sure… I’ll just take your wallet and we’ll have a lovely meal. I’ll have the steak and lobster. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/309 "2013-10-16T16:31:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Sure… I’ll just take your wallet and we’ll have a lovely meal. I’ll have the steak and lobster. The contents of my wallet wouldn’t get you a McDonalds single. Anyway, at [freedictionary.com](http://freedictionary.com) the definition for fight is > [@](#): > > a. To attempt to harm or gain power over an adversary by blows or with weapons. > b. Sports To engage in boxing or wrestling. At Merriam-Webster > [@](#): > > to use weapons or physical force to try to hurt someone, to defeat an enemy, etc. : to struggle in battle or physical combat Oxford Dictionaries > [@](#): > > take part in a violent struggle involving the exchange of physical blows or the use of weapons Please note that I used the primary definition in each example. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/310 "2013-10-16T17:22:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The contents of my wallet wouldn’t get you a McDonalds single. > Anyway, at [freedictionary.com](http://freedictionary.com) the definition for fight is > At Merriam-Webster > Oxford Dictionaries > Please note that I used the primary definition in each example. My definition fits for Oxford and Merriam-Webster, though not freedictionary, because by attempting to physically prevent someone from harming a baby- even if that just meant pulling them away, or placing yourself in between them, you would be engaging in a violent physical struggle. You would not be hitting them, but you would be resisting their efforts with force- if they swung a knife down at the baby, you would grab their arm or block it; if they charged, you would stand in their way and brace yourself; if they raised a gun and started to pull the trigger, you would attempt to disrupt his aim. You would be fighting, though not fighting to harm or kill. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/311 "2013-10-16T20:31:42Z")
**Czarcasm** I’m not sure why you haven’t responded to my last post yet. I hope I’ve made it clear that I’m asking questions in good faith. I’ve tried to spell out what I’m trying to accomplish with my hypothetical, so if there is another way of approaching those issues that you prefer, I’d be eager to read it. If you have some objection to what I’ve asked, I’d like to know what it is. And I’ll ask you again, what sort of questions were you hoping to address here? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/312 "2013-10-16T20:40:02Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > **Czarcasm** I’m not sure why you haven’t responded to my last post yet. I hope I’ve made it clear that I’m asking questions in good faith. I’ve tried to spell out what I’m trying to accomplish with my hypothetical, so if there is another way of approaching those issues that you prefer, I’d be eager to read it. If you have some objection to what I’ve asked, I’d like to know what it is. And I’ll ask you again, what sort of questions were you hoping to address here? Sorry about skipping over your question-The action of striking another human being is what I am prevented from doing, and I don’t think what you described would somehow lift that block. I don’t think I could hit another person if he giggled like the Pillsbury Dough Boy and multicolored marshmallows popped out of his ears. What kind of questions would I like? Maybe more talk about pacifism in general, and less about what it would take to get me to hit someone. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/313 "2013-10-16T20:50:52Z")
I don’t think the OP wanted a discussion on pacifism, just for everyone to acknowledge how special and unique he is. That’s what most of these “ask the” threads are. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/314 "2013-10-16T20:56:00Z")
What historically significant events do you credit to pacifism that could not or would not be accomplished through active resistance or counter-aggression? ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/315 "2013-10-16T20:57:19Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > I don’t think the OP wanted a discussion on pacifism, just for everyone to acknowledge how special and unique he is. That’s what most of these “ask the” threads are. I think your commentary is out of place in this thread. If you have a beef with the OP, take it to the Pit. No warning issued. **twickster** , MPSIMS moderator ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/316 "2013-10-16T20:58:38Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > What historically significant events do you credit to pacifism that could not or would not be accomplished through active resistance or counter-aggression? No _that’s_ a good question! I’m at work right now, so is it o.k. to wait until I get home to give you a non-terse answer? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/317 "2013-10-16T21:02:27Z")
…of course. ---
**Author:** ![HenryDorsettCase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f19dbf/32.png) [@HenryDorsettCase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HenryDorsettCase)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/318 "2013-10-16T21:06:51Z")
Even though I consider myself non-violent, I believe the drive to live would force me to defend myself if life-threatened. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/319 "2013-10-16T21:07:00Z")
The toughest part of that question is of course > [@](#): > > …could not or would not be accomplished through active resistance or counter-aggression? ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/320 "2013-10-16T21:51:04Z")
How do pacifists regard the tale of the Moriori people? For those unfamiliar, the Moriori were an indigenous Polynesian people, that settled in the Chatham Islands near New Zealand. They are regarded as either a subset of or closely related to the Maori peoples who inhabited New Zealand and surrounding islands. According to their oral history, fierce tribal warfare following their settlement of the islands in the 1500s led to a tribal leader, Nunuku-whenua, establishing a strict code of pacifism that forbade killing for any reason and substituted limited forms of ritual combat for interpersonal violence. In the 1800s, they were invaded by Maori warriors from New Zealand. > [@Wikipedia article on Moriori people](#): > > In 1835 some Ngāti Mutunga and Ngāti Tama people, Māori from the Taranaki region of the North Island of New Zealand, but living in Wellington, invaded the Chathams. On 19 November 1835, the brig Lord Rodney, a hijacked European ship, arrived carrying 500 Māori armed with guns, clubs and axes, and loaded with 78 tonnes of seed potatoes, followed by another ship with 400 more Māori on 5 December 1835. While the second shipment of invaders were waiting, **the invaders killed a 12-year-old girl and hung her flesh on posts**. They proceeded to enslave some Moriori and kill and cannibalise others. “Parties of warriors armed with muskets, clubs and tomahawks, led by their chiefs, walked through Moriori tribal territories and settlements without warning, permission or greeting. If the districts were wanted by the invaders, they curtly informed the inhabitants that their land had been taken and the Moriori living there were now vassals.” > > A hui or council of Moriori elders was convened at the settlement called Te Awapatiki. Despite knowing of the Māori predilection for killing and eating the conquered, and despite the admonition by some of the elder chiefs that the principle of Nunuku was not appropriate now, two chiefs — Tapata and Torea — declared that “ **the law of Nunuku was not a strategy for survival, to be varied as conditions changed; it was a moral imperative.** ” A Moriori survivor recalled : “[The Maori] commenced to kill us like sheep… [We] were terrified, fled to the bush, concealed ourselves in holes underground, and in any place to escape our enemies. It was of no avail; we were discovered and killed - men, women and children indiscriminately.” A Māori conqueror explained, “We took possession… in accordance with our customs and we caught all the people. Not one escaped…” **The invaders ritually killed some 10% of the population, a ritual that included staking out women and children on the beach and leaving them to die in great pain over several days**. > _[Emphasis added-AS]_ The Moriori who survived the massacre were enslaved, and by 1862, only 101 remained. Do they represent a failure of pacifism or do pacifists today believe that the Moriori were correct in their decision to let the invaders slaughter them? Was this in fact a “moral imperative”? Does it matter that today, the larger Maori warrior culture is celebrated, while the Moriori are remembered mostly as an example that is seen to discredit pacifism? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006.md?page=17)