# Ask the pacifist **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 11, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006 "2013-10-11T17:45:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/341 "2013-10-17T06:20:55Z")
**Czarcasm** , if it’s okay, I have several questions for you, if they’re not too personal. 1. Elvis or the Beatles? B. Jennifer or Bailey? III. Star Trek or Star Wars? 4th. Temptations or the Four Tops? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/342 "2013-10-17T06:45:41Z")
Was Tolstoy as extreme a pacifist as Gandhi? Henry David Thoreau isn’t considered a pacifist, right? ETA: Actually, this question breaks some new ground: > [@stui\_magpie](#): > > It may be off topic, but I’m intrigued what IS your physical response to anger, if any. (assuming you do actually get angry). Have you even lost your temper? If so, what did you do? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/343 "2013-10-17T11:18:43Z")
> [@stui\_magpie](#): > > Apologies if you answer this later, I got this far in the thread and this is the part I’m interested in. You made similar statements in post 100 and 129. > > What is the extent of this physiological block? Leave anger, desire for retribution or even self defense out of the argument, would you be capable of choosing to punch someone in any circumstances? No. > [@stui\_magpie](#): > > examples of possible situations including but not limited to physical training or when (for whatever reason) someone genuinely wanted you to punch them. No. > [@stui\_magpie](#): > > Also, you made a point before about how anger doesn’t provide you with any violent symptoms or desires as a reaction. I think the comment you made was about not balling your fists. > It may be off topic, but I’m intrigued what IS your physical response to anger, if any. (assuming you do actually get angry). Have you even lost your temper? If so, what did you do? I can get very angry and frustrated at not being able to resolve a conflict, swearing and yelling ineffectively like any other human being, then walking away until I and/or those I am arguing with cool down. This gives me time to rethink my position and/or think of a better way to present my position and/or concede that that particular argument just isn’t worth pursuing at that time. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/344 "2013-10-17T11:21:57Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > **Czarcasm** , gimmie your lunch money. I didn’t have lunch money when I was in school. My name _was_ on a list to get a free lunch, though, so if you want to try to intimidate school officials into giving you my lunch I would be more than happy to introduce you to them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/345 "2013-10-17T11:24:04Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > **Czarcasm** , if it’s okay, I have several questions for you, if they’re not too personal. > > 1. Elvis or the Beatles? > > B. Jennifer or Bailey? > > III. Star Trek or Star Wars? > > 4th. Temptations or the Four Tops? 1. The Beatles B. Bailey Quarters III. Star Trek ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/346 "2013-10-17T11:34:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What kind of questions would I like? Maybe more talk about pacifism in general, and less about what it would take to get me to hit someone. As you pointed out you are not an expert on pacifism. A discussion about the merits of pacifism is a good GD thread (and probably has been many times). You opened an “Ask the” thread. Its all about you. Of course the questions are going to be about how you react to certain situations. In other words, what did you expect? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/347 "2013-10-17T11:44:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In Quaker-controlled colonial Pennsylvania there was relative peace between the settlers and the native Americans from 1681 to 1756-a period of 75 years due to a public non-violence policy. > Russian writer Leo Tolstoy, an avid pacifist, wrote a book titled _The Kingdom of God is Within You_ that was a strong early influence on Gandhi. Gandhi, using the \* Satyagraha\* Path of pacifism spent thirty years trying freeing India, finally finding success in 1947, and this path of peace continued when Martin Luther King used Gandhi’s methods to overturn racial segregation laws. All fine examples of achieving goals and objectives through largely peaceful means. But aren’t they also examples where pacifism was the only rational option in the face of overwhelming opposing forces? In other words, had the playing field been more evenly matched, do you think Gandi and MLK would still have been the loudest voices in their respective strugles or might it have been others less inclined to pacifism? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/348 "2013-10-17T11:56:45Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > All fine examples of achieving goals and objectives through largely peaceful means. But aren’t they also examples where pacifism was the only rational option in the face of overwhelming opposing forces? In other words, had the playing field been more evenly matched, do you think Gandi and MLK would still have been the loudest voices in their respective strugles or might it have been others less inclined to pacifism? That depends on what you consider the goal is, I suppose. If the goal is to win fast at any cost to human life, then I suppose the violent path is the way to go. On the other hand, if the goal is to win with the least cost to human lives, then pacifism may be the path to follow. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/349 "2013-10-17T12:01:35Z")
I don’t know if it’s so much about a speedy victory but whether a victory through aggression is even possible under certain circumstances. If not, non-aggression seems a much more rational means to an end. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/350 "2013-10-17T12:09:27Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I don’t know if it’s so much about a speedy victory but whether a victory through aggression is even possible under certain circumstances. If not, non-aggression seems a much more rational means to an end. Maybe it is appropriate in more situations than people think, once they realize that the quickest solution doesn’t always equate to being the best overall solution. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/351 "2013-10-17T12:15:30Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I don’t know if it’s so much about a speedy victory but whether a victory through aggression is even possible under certain circumstances. If not, non-aggression seems a much more rational means to an end. Referring back to post 319, it is hard to figure out if a violent solution might have worked out better in any situation where, in reality, a peaceful solution _was_ used. Would less have died, or more? Would the victory be swift, or would it be long and bloody? If the battle is long, will it escalate and draw in others on both sides? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/352 "2013-10-17T12:21:03Z")
Agreed. So is pacifism always/ever the rational choice? Or is it just one of the two alternatives with the victors writing history? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/353 "2013-10-17T12:31:30Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Agreed. So is pacifism always/ever the rational choice? Or is it just one of the two alternatives with the victors writing history? I believe that, in time, pacifism _can eventually_ be the only rational choice. Also, if the conflict is resolved in a peaceful manner, the history being written will be more acceptable to _both_ sides, more than likely. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/354 "2013-10-17T15:25:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I believe that, in time, pacifism _can eventually_ be the only rational choice. Also, if the conflict is resolved in a peaceful manner, the history being written will be more acceptable to _both_ sides, more than likely. On a macro level, I can see how this is working. The world is generally less tolerant of despots and dictators. On a micro level, I’m not sure pacifism lends itself well to dealing with everyday bullies. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/355 "2013-10-17T15:33:46Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > On a macro level, I can see how this is working. The world is generally less tolerant of despots and dictators. On a micro level, I’m not sure pacifism lends itself well to dealing with everyday bullies. If there is, overall, less toleration for bullies, then the approval they seek will be harder to find. There are punishments that are not corporal in nature when it comes to bullies, and when fewer people look the way because “Nothing can be done about it because everybody does it”, bullying _will_ lessen. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/356 "2013-10-18T04:47:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If there is, overall, less toleration for bullies, then the approval they seek will be harder to find. There are punishments that are not corporal in nature when it comes to bullies, and when fewer people look the way because “Nothing can be done about it because everybody does it”, bullying _will_ lessen. That should be “…look the _other_ way…” ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/357 "2013-10-18T07:06:48Z")
So what I gather from this thread is that pacifism works real well for czarcasm because he is powerless to do anything else. And that he thinks pacifism works great for everyone else so long as he ignores all the times when force did help and all the times where pacifism failed miserably. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/358 "2013-10-18T07:28:29Z")
To be fair, **Kable** , I think it’s obvious that **Czarcasm** started this thread as a place for friendly pacifist chitchat where he could maybe share some pacifist stories or tell a few anecdotes and jokes from the lighter side of pacifism. He certainly wasn’t expecting to have to explain or defend pacifism. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/359 "2013-10-18T12:30:10Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > To be fair, **Kable** , I think it’s obvious that **Czarcasm** started this thread as a place for friendly pacifist chitchat where he could maybe share some pacifist stories or tell a few anecdotes and jokes from the lighter side of pacifism. He certainly wasn’t expecting to have to explain or defend pacifism. To be fair, I think I’ve tried to honestly answer any _on-topic_ questions to the best of my ability, and the fact that sometimes the answer is “I don’t know” points out the fact that I am human. At times the initial answers may have been terse, but that was usually when I was at work-when the time to expand comes I try to elaborate, if the question requires elaboration. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/360 "2013-10-18T15:32:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > …and the fact that sometimes the answer is “I don’t know” points out the fact that I am human. I’m afraid I’m going to need a cite. 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006.md?page=19)