# Ask the pacifist **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 11, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006 "2013-10-11T17:45:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/361 "2013-10-18T15:46:58Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’m afraid I’m going to need a cite. 😛 [Cite.](http://www.flickr.com/photos/27795669@N06/3065771890/) ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/362 "2013-10-19T13:33:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > To be fair, I think I’ve tried to honestly answer any _on-topic_ questions to the best of my ability, and the fact that sometimes the answer is “I don’t know” points out the fact that I am human. Exactly when you become humbly ignorant is suspicious. Is it really that hard to read the wiki on a subject… > **[Moriori](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori_people)** > > The Moriori are the first settlers of the Chatham Islands (Rēkohu in Moriori; Wharekauri in Māori). Moriori are Polynesians who came from the New Zealand mainland around 1500 CE, which was close to the time of the shift from the archaic to the classic period of Polynesian Māori culture on the mainland. Oral tradition records migration to the Chathams in the 16th century. The settlers' culture diverged from mainland Māori, and they developed a distinct Moriori language, mythol Early Moriori for... … and answer Alan Smithee’s question? And again do you think the United States should disassemble it’s military? Why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/363 "2013-10-19T17:46:54Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Exactly when you become humbly ignorant is suspicious. Is it really that hard to read the wiki on a subject… ? I read the Wiki on the subject. I also read the “talk” section of that Wiki, which leads me to believe that I had better do a bit more reading than what is provided there. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/364 "2013-10-19T17:58:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I read the Wiki on the subject. I also read the “talk” section of that Wiki, which leads me to believe that I had better do a bit more reading than what is provided there. Jared Diamond discusses the Moriori massacre at great length in _Guns Germs and Steel_. He stresses those aspects which fit his “geography is destiny” thesis, but his accounting of the facts is identical to the Wikipedia article. Most of the controversy in the talk page is about whether the Maori and Moriori are separate peoples or two branches of the same people. IOW, were the Moriori Maori who settled in the Chathams, or did they come from somewhere else? There does not appear to be much dispute about the facts of the massacre on the wiki talk page. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/365 "2013-10-19T18:13:39Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Jared Diamond discusses the Moriori massacre at great length in _Guns Germs and Steel_. I’ve ordered that book, and _Moriori: A People Rediscovered_ by Michael King from the local library. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/366 "2013-10-19T18:16:45Z")
What specifically on the talk page? Virtually all the discussion there is about the claim that the Moriori are a subset of the Maori. There is no debate that I can see about the facts of the Maori invasion or the fate of the Moriori. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/367 "2013-10-19T18:23:46Z")
Are they a separate people? If they were, which were the natives and which were the invaders? The dynamics and ethics of a civil war are different than that of a people invaded or a people invading. Another factor is whether giving a peaceful people weapons, _and at what stage in their history to give them weapons_. At what point in history would giving them weapons and training have assured their survival? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/368 "2013-10-19T18:28:39Z")
Heading for my Friday shift at the food bank-posting may be sporadic. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/369 "2013-10-19T19:38:19Z")
The issue of whether they were a separate people is something of a red herring. It used to be believed that the Moriori were the remnant of a pre-Maori people who were displaced from New Zealand by the Maori. It is now believed that this is not the case, but there is no doubt that the Moriori on the Chatham islands had established a separate way of life from the tribes occupying the North Island of New Zealand, who invaded and conquered the Moriori. Giving the Moriori weapons would not have changed anything, since they had the ability to fight back but chose not to because of their commitment to pacifism. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/370 "2013-10-19T19:42:18Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > The issue of whether they were a separate people is something of a red herring. It used to be believed that the Moriori were the remnant of a pre-Maori people who were displaced from New Zealand by the Maori. It is now believed that this is not the case, but there is no doubt that the Moriori on the Chatham islands had established a separate way of life from the tribes occupying the North Island of New Zealand, who invaded and conquered the Moriori. > > Giving the Moriori weapons would not have changed anything, since they had the ability to fight back but chose not to because of their commitment to pacifism. Giving them weapons would also have been useless without proper structure and training. That is why I ask how far back in history would such a change would have to be to be of any positive difference? ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/371 "2013-10-19T20:26:07Z")
I don’t think guns require that much previous exposure or training when you’re dealing with marauding invaders. But let’s assume that they could have fought off the invaders (or at least reduced the number of Moriori slaughtered) if they had fought back. Or just tell us how various facts might affect your answer. What if it would have required decades of weapons practice to fight back? Why is that significant? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/372 "2013-10-19T23:14:11Z")
If saving your life requires violence, and you can for help because you personally will not be violent, will you accept your rescuer being violent on your behalf, or will you prefer to die? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/373 "2013-10-20T00:31:12Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > And again do you think the United States should disassemble it’s military? Why or why not? Ahem. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/374 "2013-10-20T00:58:05Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Ahem. You should try a cough drop for that problem. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/375 "2013-10-20T00:59:47Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > If saving your life requires violence, and you can for help because you personally will not be violent, will you accept your rescuer being violent on your behalf, or will you prefer to die? I would ask that others not put themselves at risk, or risk the lives of others, on my behalf. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/376 "2013-10-20T01:08:29Z")
Would you chose to not call for help if you knew that your rescuers would necessarily have to resort to violence to save you or your family? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/377 "2013-10-20T01:12:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You should try a cough drop for that problem. I understand. It must be hard to hold an opinion that you are embarrassed to talk about. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/378 "2013-10-20T01:18:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Heading for my Friday shift at the food bank-posting may be sporadic. Matthew 6 “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/379 "2013-10-20T01:19:51Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Would you chose to not call for help if you knew that your rescuers would necessarily have to resort to violence to save you or your family? Good question. Let’s not forget that my family isn’t exactly harmless, though. If help was something to be yelled for, and not something that was already there, then yelling for help, combined with my rushing the assailant and/or putting myself between the assailant and my family might be enough to frighten the assailant off. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/380 "2013-10-20T01:22:56Z")
**Kable** , if you have a problem with the OP, take it to the Pit. Do _not_ continue taking pot shots in this thread. Consider this a moderator instruction – as in, ignore me and risk a warning. **twickster** , MPSIMS moderator [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006.md?page=20)