# Ask the pacifist **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 11, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006 "2013-10-11T17:45:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/381 "2013-10-20T01:44:29Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > **Kable** , if you have a problem with the OP, take it to the Pit. Do _not_ continue taking pot shots in this thread. > > Consider this a moderator instruction – as in, ignore me and risk a warning. > > **twickster** , MPSIMS moderator OK, but I don’t think my question is a pot shot. Reading the wiki that the OP cited on pacifism it says: “Pacifism covers a spectrum of views, including the belief that international disputes can and should be peacefully resolved, calls for the abolition of the institutions of the military…” So is it really a pot shot to ask him if he, as a pacifist, thinks we should abolish our military? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/382 "2013-10-20T01:53:02Z")
A gradual lessening of _all_ militaries would be a better solution, providing other methods of conflict resolution are actively sought. It’s not a simple problem, so there is no black-and-white solution. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/383 "2013-10-20T03:43:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Good question. Let’s not forget that my family isn’t exactly harmless, though. > If help was something to be yelled for, and not something that was already there, then yelling for help, combined with my rushing the assailant and/or putting myself between the assailant and my family might be enough to frighten the assailant off. So that still leaves a grey area in circumstances in which outside help is necessary to save your family from probable serious harm or death, but said rescuers would necessarily have to use force. For example, in an armed and violent home invasion, would you call the police, knowing that if you do not call you and your family will probably be injured or killed, but if you do call, the invaders will likely be injured or killed by the police. I guess what I’m getting at is to what degree are you willing to let others do something for you that you are not willing to do yourself, and for such matters, what are the degrees of severity (yell, shove, hit, stab, shoot) and remoteness (self, family, friend, stranger in the community, professional in the community, stranger outside of the community, professional outside of the community). (For example: re. severity, I would not strike a child who is trying to run off with my lunch, but I would strike a person who is trying to drive off with my car; re. remoteness, I would not run a sweat shop, but I would purchase a shirt from Walmart that was likely made in a Bangladesh sweat shop.) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/384 "2013-10-20T18:03:18Z")
For me, I think it is a case of what I _can’t_ do myself, not what I won’t do myself. I can try to hold back, I can try to hold down, I can block. I cannot hit, stab, shoot, kick etc. I can throw things to distract, but not if I think that what I throw will harm the other person. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/385 "2013-10-20T18:11:06Z")
Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/386 "2013-10-20T19:45:44Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Thanks. And you’re right-there are many grey areas. But there are as many grey areas in _everyone’s_ experience, and trying to examine each and every possible grey area is an exercise in madness, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/387 "2013-10-21T00:06:55Z")
I guess the most interesting question I can think of for a pacifist would be: can you watch a movie such as _Blade Runner_ or _A Clockwork Orange_ (which contain a lot of serious violence that is elemental to the story line), and if so, how would/does it affect you? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/388 "2013-10-21T01:32:48Z")
> [@For You](#): > > I guess the most interesting question I can think of for a pacifist would be: can you watch a movie such as _Blade Runner_ or _A Clockwork Orange_ (which contain a lot of serious violence that is elemental to the story line), and if so, how would/does it affect you? I seem to have no problem with pretend violence-I understand that it is an enactment of a fictional story. I would prefer, though, that the movie be of either very high quality or very low quality. I appreciate a well made movie with exceptional acting…but I _love_ schlock. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/389 "2013-10-21T02:11:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I seem to have no problem with pretend violence-I understand that it is an enactment of a fictional story. I would prefer, though, that the movie be of either very high quality or very low quality. I appreciate a well made movie with exceptional acting…but I _love_ schlock. So seeing summary “justice” or “good” triumphing over “evil” (e.g., most Bruce Willis movies) is fine with you? Because I have a major problem with cinematic “formula” material that reinforces this cultural norm, in that it tends to make us all a little more stupid. Movies that are violent and satisfy your spleen instead of tweaking your head (or eliciting guilty laughter/mockery) seem like a bad thing to me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/390 "2013-10-21T02:25:51Z")
> [@For You](#): > > So seeing summary “justice” or “good” triumphing over “evil” (e.g., most Bruce Willis movies) is fine with you? Because I have a major problem with cinematic “formula” material that reinforces this cultural norm, in that it tends to make us all a little more stupid. Movies that are violent and satisfy your spleen instead of tweaking your head (or eliciting guilty laughter/mockery) seem like a bad thing to me. Most Bruce Willis movies are neither good enough or schlocky enough for my tastes(_Hudson Hawk_ being a notable exception). Well done realistic historical dramas, movies where the real consequences of violence on both the sender and receiver are examined-Basically, movies that show violence but do not glorify it. edited to add: How in the world did you miss this line: > [@](#): > > I would prefer, though, that the movie be of either very high quality or very low quality. in such a short post? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/391 "2013-10-21T03:12:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How in the world did you miss this line: > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > I would prefer, though, that the movie be of either very high quality or very low quality. > > in such a short post? Quality is pretty subjective and ambiguous. Was _Avatar_ of high quality (I thought it absolutely dripped with “formula”)? How about _Delicatessen_? _Little Big Man_? _The Patriot_? Opinions will vary. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/392 "2013-10-21T04:04:20Z")
> [@For You](#): > > Opinions will vary. So very true. Would you like to present a list of 500 films to me to talk about? What a _delightful_ way to hijack this conversation that would be-you could then snark on each and every thing I say, and nobody would bother to come in and discuss pacifism at all! Or you _could_ quit looking for ways to take whatever I say and put it in the worst possible light. Your choice. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/393 "2013-10-21T04:38:08Z")
Notable birthday for October 21st-Alfred Nobel. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/394 "2013-10-21T05:45:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > For me, I think it is a case of what I _can’t_ do myself, not what I won’t do myself. I can try to hold back, I can try to hold down, I can block. I cannot hit, stab, shoot, kick etc. I can throw things to distract, but not if I think that what I throw will harm the other person. Does that mean that you would, generally speaking, be able and willing to call police to intervene in a home invasion or public shooting if you believe the police would have to kill the perpetrator? Also, could you respond to my latest posts on the Moriori question? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/395 "2013-10-21T05:59:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So very true. Would you like to present a list of 500 films to me to talk about? What a _delightful_ way to hijack this conversation that would be-you could then snark on each and every thing I say, and nobody would bother to come in and discuss pacifism at all! > Or you _could_ quit looking for ways to take whatever I say and put it in the worst possible light. Your choice. Goodness, laddo, I am not Kable, my goal is not to harrass you, I’m sorry if I got carried away. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/396 "2013-10-21T06:09:04Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Does that mean that you would, generally speaking, be able and willing to call police to intervene in a home invasion or public shooting if you believe the police would have to kill the perpetrator? > > Also, could you respond to my latest posts on the Moriori question? 1. If I had the psychic ability to accurately believe that police would have _no_ choice to kill the perpetrator, I would have called the police earlier stating that I saw someone skulking around the house, and given them an accurate description. Please try to ask realistic questions. 2. As I said before, I don’t think I know enough yet to weigh in on that situation, so I’ve ordered a couple of books on the subject. I’m sorry that I can’t give you the instant gratification you want. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/397 "2013-10-21T06:12:12Z")
> [@For You](#): > > Goodness, laddo, I am not Kable, my goal is not to harass you, I’m sorry if I got carried away. Sorry if _I_ overreacted-long convocation meeting gave me a headache. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/398 "2013-10-21T06:41:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. If I had the psychic ability to accurately believe that police would have _no_ choice to kill the perpetrator, I would have called the police earlier stating that I saw someone skulking around the house, and given them an accurate description. Please try to ask realistic questions. > 2. As I said before, I don’t think I know enough yet to weigh in on that situation, so I’ve ordered a couple of books on the subject. I’m sorry that I can’t give you the instant gratification you want. 1. It doesn’t take psychic ability to reasonably believe that the police might have to kill someone. Anyway, you seem to spend a lot of time fighting the hypotheticals people pose. For the sake of argument, can you just assume that you have reason to believe the cops would shoot an armed person threatening people? That’s hardly an unrealistic scenario, and while I know you can’t predict perfectly how you would act, you should be able to come up with some idea of how you hope you would act. 2. You said before that you had questions based on the Talk page on Wikipedia. I explained that the controversy on that page had nothing to do with what I asked about. I certainly understand wanting to be fully informed, but could you please say what information you want to learn and how that information might influence your answer? You’re never going to have _every_ fact, but I think you have enough to make a preliminary statement in some detail. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/399 "2013-10-21T14:40:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > A gradual lessening of _all_ militaries would be a better solution, providing other methods of conflict resolution are actively sought. It’s not a simple problem, so there is no black-and-white solution. That’s pretty ambiguous, but I’ll take it your answer to my question is a black-and-white “NO.” Such that you don’t think the USA should disassemble it’s military. As a pacifist who can do no violence to others it seems you do still value the ability of others to do violence on your behalf. Philosophically, how can you justify that? Or is your stance more emotionally based rather than philosophical? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/400 "2013-10-21T14:48:11Z")
This has _got_ to be one for the books. I have heard it said that Wiki is worthless as a source. I have heard it said that Wiki is o.k. at best as a source. I have heard it said that Wiki is pretty good but shouldn’t be the only source. This is the _first_ time in the entire history of Wikipedia that I have been told that Wiki was the _only_ source I needed to make a decision about a major historical topic. > [@Alan Smithee](#): > > You’re never going to have every fact, but I think you have enough to make a preliminary statement in some detail. I’m sure you do-you’ve said so more than once. My decision is that I _don’t_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006.md?page=21)