# Ask the pacifist **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 11, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006 "2013-10-11T17:45:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/141 "2013-10-14T01:30:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I can’t do violence, I don’t want violence done on my behalf, and I prefer non-violent solutions over violent solutions. > So how would you label me? I was thinking “Conscientious objector”. It’s not precise, but neither is “Pacifist”. (Ref: Ravenman) > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I don’t think I would flip that switch. I’ve gone 55 years without having to use violence, and I’ve learned some great negotiating methods to make up for them. Frankly, given that we live in the West, I can’t see a problem with your stance. After all, you are willing to restrain the bad guys, just not hit them. Maybe there would be a problem if you lived 30 minutes from the nearest cop. I’m guessing you did not have an older brother. Am I correct? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > It’s like a psychological block of some sort. I don’t even recall balling my fists in rage in any time of my life and, believe me, I had a home life that would certainly make most react with violent rage. Perhaps it’s akin to a severe stutter: Would you berate someone if they couldn’t stop stuttering, even if it would save the life of their child? Perhaps, with proper psychological help and/or the right drugs I can overcome this problem. I think a few years of martial arts training might unblock that. > [@](#): > > Should I? Personally, I don’t see the point. I do recommend physical fitness. Martial arts keeps it interesting, so there’s that. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I developed from not being able to subject others to direct violence, to finding workarounds that seem to suit me just fine, to seeing violence as less of a solution and more of a problem the more I looked at the bigger picture. I think I lead a happy life, and my loved ones love me just the way I am(quirks and all), so I am not leaning at this moment towards removing this block and becoming what most call “normal”. Most of us have workarounds. For the purposes of improving our game, please share if you have any good ones. For myself, although I am willing to commit violence against another in the right circumstances, I am likely to interpret it as a case of personal failure. De-escalation is better. I don’t anticipate needing to use violence for the remainder of my life. Women and those under 18 operate in a different realm and have more need for self defense training IMHO. There are other groups with heightened risks as well: those in the legal and enforcement professions come to mind as do members of the GLBT community. FWIW, regarding dicey situations, I’d prefer to have Czarcasm along rather than Yosemite Sam. Especially in a crowd scene where pacifist skills are rarer. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/142 "2013-10-14T01:36:14Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I’m guessing you did not have an older brother. Am I correct? I am the eldest of seven. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I think a few years of martial arts training might unblock that. I think a few years of martial arts training might kill me. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/143 "2013-10-14T01:48:21Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Maybe there would be a problem if you lived 30 minutes from the nearest cop. As you can see from which of your questions he cherry picked to reply, he doesn’t particularly seem interested in any kind of philosophical discussion. I’m not sure why he started the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/144 "2013-10-14T01:50:04Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > As you can see from which of your questions he cherry picked to reply, he doesn’t particularly seem interested in any kind of philosophical discussion. > > I’m not sure why he started the thread. And I’m not sure why you are still here…but I have my suspicions. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/145 "2013-10-14T01:56:50Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Most of us have workarounds. For the purposes of improving our game, please share if you have any good ones. Sorry about the erratic answers-real life(and a severe migraine) intrudes. Workarounds? Learn to shut up until you know the lay of the land-find out what sets people off, what interests they have, which conversations to have and which to avoid. If you must walk about a strange area, look like you belong there. Develop a sense of humor that works at more than one level, laugh with and not at. Be someone people can depend on and like. edited to add: Be able to see situations where a defense is exactly what a possible opponent is looking for-someone to hit _back_, and thus claim that what they are doing is also self defense. That’s the time to ignore the attack, no matter what name calling might ensue. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/146 "2013-10-14T01:59:20Z")
Why do you say you are pro 2nd amendment? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/147 "2013-10-14T02:01:05Z")
> [@](#): > > I think a few years of martial arts training might kill me. 😛 Some [Aikido](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aikido) dojos profess peace, love and conflict resolution.[1] Other Aikido dojos can be highly martial though: in Japan their SWAT teams undertake a rigorous year-long Aikido training regime. Wikipedia: Today aikido is found all over the world in a number of styles, with broad ranges of interpretation and emphasis. However, they all share techniques learned from Ueshiba and most have concern for the well-being of the attacker. > [@TokyoBayer](#): > > As you can see from which of your questions he cherry picked to reply, he doesn’t particularly seem interested in any kind of philosophical discussion. No worries, but I disagree with these sentiments. He’s not a philosophical pacifist as commonly understood, …but he is what he is, right? His POV is in contrast with a lot hot-headed stuff that I personally regard as thinly-veiled homicidal or near-homicidal fantasy. I’ve practiced martial arts for a few years now (fitness!) and still detest violence. ETA: Not a bad set of workarounds. [1] Accuracy, high respect but also irony intended. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/148 "2013-10-14T02:02:12Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Why do you say you are pro 2nd amendment? Because it has been ruled the law of the land by the Supreme Court of the United States, and that any attempts to bypass their ruling might result in even more violence. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/149 "2013-10-14T02:10:53Z")
Measure for Measure, can you give me an example of the parts of the thread that you find to be fantasy? I know a lot of martial arts types have some special clarity on violent situations, but most humans in general have some idea how they will act in certain situations, and we often see those situations played out in life. The mama bear cliche is actually something that I have witnessed with my own eyes…there wasn’t any internet tough guy stuff going on there. Just mothers who were willing to do whatever to protect their kid, with no thought of their own safety. So, please expound. I may be way off track by what you mean by “thinly-veiled…homicidal fantasy…” ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/150 "2013-10-14T02:21:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Because it has been ruled the law of the land by the Supreme Court of the United States, and that any attempts to bypass their ruling might result in even more violence. Would you have preferred the Supreme Court to have ruled the other way? ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/151 "2013-10-14T02:22:03Z")
Here are some questions that I hope might get this thread back on track: _[ETA: The thread seems to have verged back on track while I was thinking and typing, but hopefully these will further that along.]_ Suppose you woke up tomorrow and found that you no longer had a special aversion or inability when it comes to violence. Not that you had any anger or desire to commit violence, but that you felt fully capable of acting violently if you believed it was morally justified. How woud you feel about this? Are there any situations in which you could imagine yourself then deciding to act violently (such as to save a child) or would you choose to act in the same non-violent manner? What is your overall moral philosophy? Are you a deontologist or a consequentialist? What deontological obligations do you believe we have, or what calculus should we use to evaluate consequences, and why? If the US were being invaded and there were a plebiscite on whether to use military force to defend the country, how would you vote and what things would influence your decision? How do you feel about the US involvement in WWII? If you had been alive then, would you have supported the US entering the war? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/152 "2013-10-14T02:31:18Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Would you have preferred the Supreme Court to have ruled the other way? No-I think that if the Supreme Court had ruled the other way even more violence would have ensued. Many years ago I started a poll as to how gun owners on the SDMB would react if the Supreme Court _did_ rule the other way. The following conversations were not pleasant. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/153 "2013-10-14T02:37:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No-I think that if the Supreme Court had ruled the other way even more violence would have ensued. Many years ago I started a poll as to how gun owners on the SDMB would react if the Supreme Court _did_ rule the other way. The following conversations were not pleasant. Suppose you could get rid of the 2nd amendment without pro-gun people reacting violently. Would you? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/154 "2013-10-14T02:42:48Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Measure for Measure, can you give me an example of the parts of the thread that you find to be fantasy? I know a lot of martial arts types have some special clarity on violent situations, but most humans in general have some idea how they will act in certain situations, and we often see those situations played out in life. The mama bear cliche is actually something that I have witnessed with my own eyes…there wasn’t any internet tough guy stuff going on there. Just mothers who were willing to do whatever to protect their kid, with no thought of their own safety. So, please expound. I may be way off track by what you mean by “thinly-veiled…homicidal fantasy…” Well I agree about human wiring, and I was referring to male modes of thought. Put it this way. The ancestral environment had levels of violence many times that which is faced by 1st world humans. Heck [murder rates in 1850](http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/06/long-term-trend-in-homicide-rates.html) were substantially higher than they are today. Most of us won’t be killed off in a Mad Max hail of bullets: hardened arteries or cancer are by far the greater threat. So while we are wired to fear violence, this typically reflects poor risk assessment. The 2nd point is that males and females conceive of violence differently. Females face a real risk of sexual assault in my view. The biggest threat to guys are honor fights - ones that frankly are pretty simple to back down from, albeit at a potentially high psychological cost. The trick as I see it is to lower that cost without stooping to violence. I hear talk of self-defense by males and frankly a lot of it is bullshit IMHO. Look. I’ve been mugged and I’ve had a knife held to my throat. I managed each experience without violence and I believe that in both cases a violent response would have been counterproductive. That said, I’ve been fortunate enough never to be exposed to extreme violence, so I’m not dispensing advice here, certainly not universals. Anyway, if I’m mugged, I’m going to hand over my goddamn wallet: it’s really not hard. ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/155 "2013-10-14T02:45:34Z")
I haven’t posted in this thread until now, and **Czarcasm** : I feel exactly as frustrated and confused with your answers in this thread as **Peter Morris** , **Tokyo Bayer** and others. You started a thread inviting people to ask you about your pacifism. You got quite a few thoughtful questions, which you answered in extremely short, superficial replies. And you seem convinced people are trying to “gotcha ya”. Dude: when multiple people are “acting” like they don’t understand… Maybe they aren’t acting? I don’t think your answers line up with pacifism, either, and for the same reasons others have brought up. But instead of actually _answering_ their follow up questions, you’re arguing over their sincerity. Not cool. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/156 "2013-10-14T02:46:15Z")
Yeah, Measure, I’ve had to hand over my wallet before. It wasn’t a difficult decision at all. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/157 "2013-10-14T02:48:47Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Suppose you woke up tomorrow and found that you no longer had a special aversion or inability when it comes to violence. Not that you had any anger or desire to commit violence, but that you felt fully capable of acting violently if you believed it was morally justified. How woud you feel about this? Are there any situations in which you could imagine yourself then deciding to act violently (such as to save a child) or would you choose to act in the same non-violent manner? I really don’t know how I would feel about it, but I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t be like flicking a switch. 55 years of being unable to hit someone coupled with a pacifistic nature developed over a period of about 35 years would be hard to overcome…and I’m not sure that I would want to. > [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > What is your overall moral philosophy? Are you a deontologist or a consequentialist? What deontological obligations do you believe we have, or what calculus should we use to evaluate consequences, and why? I think that, through necessity my ethics were more pragmatic than anything else, but slowly evolved to include just a bit of consequentialism. I don’t think I am of the deontological mindset, because I think that any duties can only be placed on ourselves _by_ ourselves. > [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > If the US were being invaded and there were a plebiscite on whether to use military force to defend the country, how would you vote and what things would influence your decision? I wouldn’t vote, because there is no way the common citizen has enough insight or information to overrule those who do. I know this sounds like a dodge, but it’s the only answer I can come up with at this time. > [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > How do you feel about the US involvement in WWII? If you had been alive then, would you have supported the US entering the war? Same answer as the previous question, I’m afraid. I probably wouldn’t have supported the war, but such non-support would have been a combination of my nature and my ignorance. Not a good combination, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/158 "2013-10-14T02:59:01Z")
Do you think this woman acted appropriately? [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/s1-Kz3vU5DY/hqdefault.jpg "Okla. Woman Shoots, Kills Intruder 911 Operators Say It's OK to Shoot - ABC News.mp4") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1-Kz3vU5DY) ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/159 "2013-10-14T03:37:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I really don’t know how I would feel about it, but I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t be like flicking a switch. 55 years of being unable to hit someone coupled with a pacifistic nature developed over a period of about 35 years would be hard to overcome…and I’m not sure that I would want to. Then you’re not a pacifist. A pacifist would want not to overcome it. The most you can say is that you might be a pacifist, but you’re not sure. > [@](#): > > I think that, through necessity my ethics were more pragmatic than anything else, but slowly evolved to include just a bit of consequentialism. I don’t think I am of the deontological mindset, because I think that any duties can only be placed on ourselves _by_ ourselves. Pacifism is a typically a deontological philosophy, since it asserts an absolute duty to avoiding military violence. You _can_ be a consequentialist pacifist, if you believe that force _always_ leads to morally bad consequences, but you also have to be fairly blinkered to believe that. I don’t think there is any form of pacifism consistant with ethical pragmatism. > [@](#): > > I wouldn’t vote, because there is no way the common citizen has enough insight or information to overrule those who do. I know this sounds like a dodge, but it’s the only answer I can come up with at this time. It’s not a dodge because it clearly communicates that you are not a pacifist. A pacifist would necessarily oppose military action regardless of the circumstances. > [@](#): > > Same answer as the previous question, I’m afraid. I probably wouldn’t have supported the war, but such non-support would have been a combination of my nature and my ignorance. Not a good combination, I think. Then you are not a pacifist, because a pacifist would oppose war regardless of the circumstances. Look, I know I said that I wasn’t going to debate whether you’re a pacifist or not, but these answers don’t leave any room for ambiguity. You are not a pacifist as the word is typically used. Plus, I still don’t know what you wanted to talk about in this thread. You haven’t offered up anything for discussion. You haven’t made any moral or philosophical assertions. You haven’t even told us much about yourself except obliquely and tersely. What kind of questions did you hope we would ask? What did you want to tell us? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006/160 "2013-10-14T07:13:31Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > No. That is noble as hell. That is the noblest shit I ever heard in my life. That has nothing at all to do with what we are discussing here, though. Yes and no. In the first place, these lasses were raised in a devoutly religious environment and were probably certain that being shot to death would be a fast track to the three-legged stool right next to the throne of god-almighty. IOW, death would amount to eternal glory, and it is not entirely obvious that they would have had a clear understanding of what dying meant in the first place. As for being off-topic, it is really not, in an odd way. To invite violence upon oneself, even in the hope that it might save others, is still promoting violence, so self-sacrifice is rather the opposite of pacifism. A pacifist objects to _all_ violence. I mean, I am almost certain I could not be the person who steps forward to die so that others could live, what those girls did was unimaginable to me, but putting it into its context changes the tone just a wee bit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pacifist/671006.md?page=9)