# Ask the Pastured Poultry Farmer **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 4, 2011, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pastured-poultry-farmer/584333 "2011-06-04T20:35:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pastured-poultry-farmer/584333/121 "2011-06-13T00:58:32Z")
> [@](#): > > I firmly believe that there is a hidden cost buried in cheap food however. I believe that this is right, it’s like any number of short sighted bottom line practices. We might not pay for for these practices today, but we’ll pay for them tomorrow, or our children will. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pastured-poultry-farmer/584333/122 "2011-06-13T01:40:11Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > is the purpose of “bedding” in non-cage housing purely to neutralize the feces? Is there anything analogous to bedding in cages, where there are no feces? ok, the [Poultry farming - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_coop) article says that yes, the bedding is there “to deal with chicken droppings and to allow for easier cleanup”. Further, this article is silent on the question of mechanization of feces removal from coops, including on the ideas I have cited upthread involving raising chickens in machine-cleanable troughs. The [Battery cage - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_cage) article says (about egg chickens): > [@](#): > > By all accounts, a caged layer facility is more expensive to build than high-density floor confinement, but can be cheaper to operate if designed to minimize labor. > > North and Bell report the following advantages to laying cages: > > ``` > 1. It is easier to care for the pullets; no birds are underfoot. 2. Floor eggs are eliminated. 3. Eggs are cleaner. 4. Culling is expedited. 5. In most instances, less feed is required to produce a dozen eggs. 6. Broodiness is eliminated. 7. More pullets may be housed in a given house floor space. 8. Internal parasites are eliminated. 9. Labor requirements are generally much reduced[4] > > ``` > > They also cite disadvantages to cages: > > ``` > 1. The handling of manure may be a problem. 2. Generally, flies become a greater nuisance. 3. The investment per pullet may be higher than in the case of floor operations. 4. There is a slightly higher percentage of blood spots in the eggs. 5. The bones are more fragile and processors often discount the fowl price.[4] > > ``` Note especially the claim of elimination of internal parasites, which ties into our related discussion in this thread. Also, the photo in this article shows cages arrayed in what looks like at least two levels (shelves), presumably with manure removal system (not clearly pictured) under the upper cages and above the lower ones. Further, unfortunately no hard numbers are cited. It remains unclear just how expensive is it to clean out feces from coops vs how expensive is it to build and operate these battery cages. Overall, both our thread so far and these articles reinforce in me the impression that the single biggest unsolved “actual problem” (to quote **Pullet** ’s post 90) in chicken farming is the handling of feces. Hence, if we are interested in anticipating or creating “revolutionary” developments in the field, that should be the main area of focus. Presumably the hypothetical system for growing meat chickens in conditions similar to battery cages which I have been discussing upthread would (if it ever materializes) be some clever variation on this general feces removal theme. ---
**Author:** ![gregorio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@gregorio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gregorio)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pastured-poultry-farmer/584333/123 "2011-06-13T01:58:08Z")
Hey code\_grey, maybe it’s time to go start your own thread. I want to learn more about pastured chickens. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pastured-poultry-farmer/584333/124 "2011-06-13T02:11:30Z")
> [@gregorio](#): > > Hey code\_grey, maybe it’s time to go start your own thread. I want to learn more about pastured chickens. then why don’t you ask some questions about them? The last question about pastured chickens was asked a few days ago, so admittedly it’s hard to learn more on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![gregorio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@gregorio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gregorio)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pastured-poultry-farmer/584333/125 "2011-06-13T02:46:46Z")
Most if not all of my questions about pastured chickens have been answered. I was happy to read the OP’s contributions to this thread. Yours, not so much. Other posters have been very polite and informative humouring you. But really, I think you would be better served in a thread of your own. ---
**Author:** ![Pullet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Pullet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pullet)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pastured-poultry-farmer/584333/126 "2011-06-13T04:01:55Z")
**code\_grey** : I have to admit that I am getting frustrated that you don’t seem to be assimilating the information I already gave you. I’m not going to give you a detailed price break down on stuff because 1) it varies widely depending on the specifics of the farm, 2) it’s not within the scope of this thread and 3) because you don’t seem to be accepting the baseline truths of the situation in the first place. I’m going to try restating these truths one more time. Maybe a list format will get them across. 1. All chicks are initially kept on the floor until they reach their finished size. There is no other way to keep them in the numbers that we keep them. 2. Keeping birds on the floor can be done with minimal disease to the birds if it is done properly. There is no way to completely eliminate disease for the number of birds we keep. This is not a feces problem. This is a reality problem if we want to keep having the number of birds we have. 3. There are different, equally valid ways of minimizing disease. Which techniques a producer chooses depends on multiple factors, some of which the producer has control over and some of which she doesn’t. Sometimes they choose to use antibiotics and sometimes they don’t. NO SITUATION, Not One, requires changing out the litter while the birds are in the space. (The OP’s technique of pastured poultry is the only one that comes close and, as already discussed, this technique is not applicable to large scale farming) 4. ADULT MEAT CHICKENS CANNOT BE KEPT IN CAGES! 5. Some places choose to keep egg laying birds in cages once they start laying eggs because this is the most labor efficient way _to keep the eggs clean_ and the chickens physically healthy. The psychological health of the birds in this system is debatable. 6. Yeah, it’s possible to have a two-story building for meat birds or stacked battery cages for egg layers. That’s one of those many factors that a producer chooses between when designing their facility. 7. You are not going to revolutionize the poultry industry when you are so unfamiliar with birds that you don’t know how many holes they have on their ass. ---
**Author:** ![Pullet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Pullet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pullet)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pastured-poultry-farmer/584333/127 "2011-06-13T04:15:26Z")
> [@jlzania](#): > > No _thank_ you, Pullet. Of course, with that user name I would expect no less. 😉 > I am in absolute agreement and this is a quandry that I’ve haven’t been able to resolve to my satisfaction. > On one hand, I can’t charge any less for my birds. > Michael Pollen says rich farmers grow crap food for poor people and poor farmers grow good food for rich people. I’m trying to find the balance. > I know some of my farmers market clients are just barely middle class. > They choose to give up other things in order to eat well. > They don’t dine out much, they don’t buy sodas or processed foods, they eat what’s seasonal. > That still doesn’t help the single mother struggling to put food on the table. > My market accepts WIC but not for meat products. > > I firmly believe that there is a hidden cost buried in cheap food however. > [snip] > That still doesn’t answer the question of how to make high quality food more accessible does it? Access and knowledge about good quality food is a big problem in multiple ways. Thinking about all the many facets that problem can be examined from makes me tired. To be honest, the only solution my feeble brain can come up with is to have less demand, either by convincing everyone to eat less meat or to have fewer people in total. And, eating less meat is only possible for those folks with the luxury of choosing what they get to eat. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pastured-poultry-farmer/584333/128 "2011-06-13T06:43:44Z")
**Pullet** , questions inspired by your post 126: Why do baby chicks, even of the egg chickens, have to be grown in coops and not in separate cages? Is it a matter of the difficulty of changing the mesh size of the cage floor as their feet grow? Or a matter of excessive cost of cages themselves which are not offset, at this stage of their life, by any benefit from caging? At what age does a meat chicken become “adult”? (as per your bullet point 4 in post 126). Also, regardless of that point, does the meat chicken industry even have a distinct notion of “adult” nowadays or do they generally think of the chickens as growing monotonically up to the moment of slaughter? Your claims that cages are “equally valid” with some other alternative methods of housing apparently contradict the wikipedia article’s opinions cited in my post 122, namely that cages make the process of keeping those chickens that can live in them a whole lot less labor intensive. Apparently, the benefit in labor savings is important even at the current low American wages, and presumably it would be even more important in a high wage environment (e.g. Western Europe or Japan). Right? 🙂 (and yeah, I get it, at this given moment there is no cheap, mechanized way of cleaning up feces after meat chickens in the same way as the cage and the manure-removal system under it “cleans up” feces after egg chickens - a real shame, I guess) ---
**Author:** ![Sierra\_Indigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Sierra\_Indigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sierra_Indigo)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pastured-poultry-farmer/584333/129 "2011-06-13T07:46:36Z")
Did you miss the part where a moderator told you to take it to another thread, code\_grey? ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pastured-poultry-farmer/584333/130 "2011-06-13T08:30:31Z")
Moving right along. Are “organic” chickens really all that? I guess you’re the real deal, but every time I see “organic” on a label in a supermarket, my doper bullshit senses start tingling and I wonder if they really mean “we left the sick ones to die and only feed you those that make it to the end”. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pastured-poultry-farmer/584333/131 "2011-06-13T12:03:32Z")
**code\_grey** , I’ve told you once, I’m now telling you again: If you have questions about chickens and their execretory practices, _start a new thread in General Questions_. You are off-topic in this thread. If I come back in here again, it will be to give you a warning for ignoring moderator instructions. **twickster** , MPSIMS moderator ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pastured-poultry-farmer/584333/132 "2011-06-13T12:15:25Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > Moving right along. > > Are “organic” chickens really all that? I guess you’re the real deal, but every time I see “organic” on a label in a supermarket, my doper bullshit senses start tingling and I wonder if they really mean “we left the sick ones to die and only feed you those that make it to the end”. I don’t understand what this means…would it be preferable to sell the ones that died of parasites or bacterial infection to the public, too? ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pastured-poultry-farmer/584333/133 "2011-06-13T13:06:43Z")
**Code\_Grey** , I have a simple solution to your questions that doesn’t involve any additional reading on your part and will be absolutely free for you. PM me your mailing address and I will happily send you a sample box of chicken shit and bedding to examine at your leisure. In fact, I’d be\* delighted \*to do do. I could get in in the mail by Wednesday. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pastured-poultry-farmer/584333/134 "2011-06-13T13:07:22Z")
Basically, don’t feed the birds antibiotics, but don’t do anything else different from factory farming either. Far more losses due to disease, but you get to sell whatever remains (likely not in the pink of health) as “organic” at some ridiculous markup. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pastured-poultry-farmer/584333/135 "2011-06-13T13:08:23Z")
> [@jlzania](#): > > **Code\_Grey** , I have a simple solution to your questions that doesn’t involve any additional reading on your part and will be absolutely free for you. > PM me your mailing address and I will happily send you a sample box of chicken shit and bedding to examine at your leisure. > In fact, I’d be\* delighted \*to do do. > I could get in in the mail by Wednesday. Why doesn’t this board have a “like” button yet??!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pastured-poultry-farmer/584333/136 "2011-06-13T13:17:17Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > Basically, don’t feed the birds antibiotics, but don’t do anything else different from factory farming either. Far more losses due to disease, but you get to sell whatever remains (likely not in the pink of health) as “organic” at some ridiculous markup. Ah, okay. Good question, then. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pastured-poultry-farmer/584333/137 "2011-06-13T13:22:06Z")
> [@jlzania](#): > > **Code\_Grey** , I have a simple solution to your questions that doesn’t involve any additional reading on your part and will be absolutely free for you. > PM me your mailing address and I will happily send you a sample box of chicken shit and bedding to examine at your leisure. > In fact, I’d be\* delighted \*to do do. > I could get in in the mail by Wednesday. Personally, I wouldn’t give away any of our chicken shit. We have four hens that lay fantastic eggs, and eat up any leftovers we would otherwise toss in the garbage. We compost their manure and get perfect high nitrogen fertilizer. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pastured-poultry-farmer/584333/138 "2011-06-13T17:47:17Z")
About how many eggs do “backyard” chickens lay per year? I know that battery chickens don’t lay an egg every day. My husband kind of wants to have a backyard flock, but I am resisting this, mainly because I HAVE collected eggs from a neighbor’s flock. Also because I have had personal experience with chicken shit (same flock). I am rather astonished that there’s no good market for the chicken heads and innards and feet. Even if you can’t get the cost back, could you maybe donate them to a soup kitchen or something, and at least get a tax writeoff? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pastured-poultry-farmer/584333/139 "2011-06-13T18:05:38Z")
Our hens lay close to an egg a day each in the spring, summer, and early fall. We do not supplement their light, so they get winters off. With four hens, and just two humans, that means the dogs get eggs every so often as a treat. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pastured-poultry-farmer/584333/140 "2011-06-13T20:30:50Z")
Do you keep any roosters, **jlzania**? I’m sure you end up with some, because sexing chicks still isn’t 100% accurate, but I’m curious what you do with them. When I had my little flock, I kept a rooster, and it was an aggressive, nasty bird. I’ve heard very few people say nice things about them. > [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > If you’re seriously interested in the subject, READ A BOOK. Storey’s guide to raising chickens is a pretty good one. I learned a lot from it. If you’re still reading this thread, **code\_grey** , I’d recommend that book. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pastured-poultry-farmer/584333.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pastured-poultry-farmer/584333.md?page=8)