[QUOTE=MorfaneLiberal
Sorry, I was unclear. I follow your line of thought. I do not know what Tonto and FSU are.[/QUOTE]
Tonto was an Indian sidekick for the title character in the hit television series from the 1950s, The Lone Ranger. He played sycophant to the Ranger, validating his wisdom with lines like, “Me thinkum Kimo Sabe is wise.” FSU is Florida State University — the Seminoles (an Indian tribe).
Due to prior nitpicks, ‘black’ will be used to indicate ‘African American’ for the duration of this post. If this is objectionable, well, I cannot please everyone.
Sapo,
Black jerks bother me because they are jerks. White jerks bother me because they are jerks.
Black jerks of the Center Of The Universe (COTU for short) variety have been more common than nonblack jerks of the COTU variety in my school/college environments. Black individuals make up about 5% (give or take a few) of said population; nonblack individuals account for the remaining 95% (again, give or take a few). Black jerks of the COTU flavor have been a very large subset of the black segment of the population.
Thus I tend to preassume that any given black individual is very likely to be a COTU. I will quote your own post from the other thread on the subject, as you have articulated this better than I can:
Replace ‘criminal’ and ‘thug’ with ‘COTU,’ throw in that mini-pirate-looking headwear (doo-rags?), and you have my view. However, such sartorial preferences (entirely or in part) are/were nearly universal among black males in both my former school and my college.
I have to admit that I am guilty of using profane language in public places myself.
The above does not account for female COTUs, but they are in the minority in my experience.
Liberal
Thanks for the explanation.
Morfane, I can understand how your environment and experience shaped your views of black men. I once had similar views of white ones. The white COTU wasn’t as showy as the black COTU. It was more passive-aggressive in nature. But there did seem to be a tendency from my vantage point for whites to be treacherous, unforgiving, condescending, and arrogant.
Over time, I learned that the white COTUs and the black COTUs were products of their own environments, just as I was a product of mine. The black COTU is more showy because his cultural heritage lent itself to showy celebration and ritual. The white COTU is more sneaky because his cultural heritage lent itself to codified pretense and ceremony.
Even we have our COTUs. Ours behave like their cultural heritage would lead you to expect. They are warriors on a tear, relatively disorganized and passionate. Ward Churchill is so bad that his own tribe has disowned him. And Indian councils have formed watchdog groups to monitor him so that his screeds can be rebutted through timely publication.
When you see a black COTU who is showy, boastful, and noisy, thank your lucky stars. He’s an easy target if you find the need to defend yourself. It’s the ones who hide behind pretentious etiquette that are truly dangerous. You don’t even know you’re wounded until they have left the room.
Morfane, do you think that the “entitlement”, as you term it, is a result of culture, or of the political climate? I assume you don’t favor a genetic basis as you limit your treatment to African-Americans rather than Africans.
Do you think this observation can be attributed to perception bias? That is to say, you’ve already earmarked black people as jerks, so you’re primed and ready to notice their assholish behavior. But because you’re less likely to equate white=jerk, you miss assholish behaviors from white people.
Doesn’t this contradict what you said earlier, about black individuals being okie-dokey?
In my experience, white guys are the most vocal with their profanity and blasphemous language (i.e., using “Christ” or “Jesus” as a exclamation.) And just as Liberal has, I’ve noticed that they also tend to be more arrogant and contemptuous than any other segment of the population.
So are you prejudiced against black women?
I took that to mean that he is prejudiced in favor of black women (over black men).
Florida State has the official sanction of the Seminole tribe to call themselves the Seminoles; all the names and icons the University uses have been approved by the tribe. For whatever that’s worth.
Apropos of not much: I’ve known a few Sub-Saharan African immigrants that feel pretty much the same way about American blacks as Morfane. I also once had a memorable, similarly-themed conversation with a young man from Spain, who moved to the U.S. to attend college. My personal sample size is too small to be meaningful … but from what I have experienced, it’s (unusually?) common for recent immigrants to the U.S. to quickly develop negative impressions of American blacks.
Do they come in expecting the worst, or are they clean slates upon their U.S. arrival? I was never sure either way.
Well, with a sample size of 2, both my parents were immigrants with quite clean slates (and little knowledge of American culture of any sort), but they now hold views similar to the OPs. They were, however, cautious enough to warn me about expressing such views publicly. This guy, whom I respect even though I disagree with him on several issues, also agrees.
Liberal,
You may very well be correct.
athelas,
I suspect it’s mostly culture.
monstro,
‘Jerk’ is a broad category, and would likely include myself and many of the esteemed posters here beneath its brush. ‘COTU,’ as mentioned above, implies a degree of asshattery so egregious that it cannot be ignored without a heroic effort. Do you honestly think I would ignore a missing segment of an assignment denting my grade when the offender is white?
For individuals whom I already know, I can usually go by my knowledge of those individuals. Ones I do not I tend to prejudge.
Guilty as charged. Is this that profoundly offensive (in the absence of children)? If so, I’ll try to mend my ways.
Liberal got it. The meaning, that is, not the prejudice.
Okay, now. You’ve patiently answered all my questions. What about Jews? What are your prejudices with respect to Jews?
They run the world and knocked down the twin towers. What do you think Morfane thinks? (And where’s the Jewish smiley when you need it?)
Per post 53 I think Morfane is Jewish of at least of Jewish cultural extraction.
Huh. Well kudos to everyone for doing this civilly. I’m not sure it could be done anywhere else but the Dope Boards.
I guess I’m on board with trying to understand the motivations of the OP. It seems relevant to me and how I would choose to engage. OP, what are you looking out of this? Is it merely a curiosity thing? Do you want to be proven right or wrong?
Personally I feel that the world would probably be a lot better place if people openly admitted their various prejudices. The more conscious we are of them, the less likely they are to shape our behavior. You seem to understand that being prejudiced isn’t rational, and yet you still admit to some prejudiced behaviors. I’m curious how you reconcile your prejudiced behaviors to being a rational person.
I can honestly say that Jews are behind most of my problems.
olivesmarch4th,
I’m looking for rational self-examination under fire. As mentioned above, I’d be short a friend due to my prejudice if not for fortunate circumstances.
As for rationality, I’m rational in the sense that the Soviet Union was Communist, minus the gulag thing - it’s a desired goal, not an existing state of being. FWIW, I think that prejudices are not necessarily irrational.
Well… maybe it would be possible then to look at the issue purely as rational self-interest. Your prejudice would have lost you a friend. So there’s at least one case where it was a detriment to you to continue prejudiced behavior. Imagine all the times you’ve missed out on good experiences or good people because of your prejudice.
On the other hand, I can’t see how your life would be improved at all for continuing to act in accordance with your racial bias. Can you explain any ways in which you feel your prejudice makes your life more enjoyable?
Would you describe yourself as “socially well-adjusted”? Do you have a steady group of friends and how are you and they viewed by other people?
I question the motivation of such threads or conversations. Yes, everyone has their own biases and prejudices. I just think it’s a little wierd to rationalize them to people.
In Soviet Russia, elementary school comes to you. (sorry…it had to be said).
Yes, I know. It is of interest to me whether he has prejudices against his own people.
Edited to add:
Morphane, a more expansive response than the one you gave would be appreciated. Thanks.
This reminds me of a thread in GQ a few days ago, the poster was asking how other people dealt with their brain running wild reviewing things when they wanted to concentrate - her major beef was that it was disturbing her sex life.
It gave me quite a start as I’ve only met one person who has talked about anything similar, yet people piled in as if the subject were common.
I suspect Morfane was trying something similar - to see how people really felt.
Sort of broaching a taboo subject.
Yet again, I’m quite surprized, most people I know have a bundle of prejudices, they normally keep them low key to avoid offending anyone.
It is common knowledge that those of Jamaican origin don’t much like Blacks of African origin - and the feeling is mutual. Neither are that keen on Indians, yet again mutual.
In 1991 in Israel, Russian Jewish immigrants were regarded as wastrels, they would make jokes about them. More recently those jokes get a blank stare - they have assimilated and are regarded as good citizens.
I think that wherever I’ve been, I’ve found that people have prejudices, one of the funniest was in Ghana where our local contact had me and a colleague in stitches as he described the characteristics of the local tribes - the Ghaas, Igbo, Ashanti etc - the first are laid back, the second are known for being clever and manipulative and the third for being status conscious. Naturally our guy was a Ghaa - well educated in America.
On my part I tend to be wary of young black guys - especially with hoods, but if they are over about about forty I expect them to be pretty decent. I also consider people sporting brand names jerks - why be a walking bill board ?
olivesmarch,
evasion of much stress and ire.
msmith,
That’s a pretty rude question to ask. Right now, I’m posting on a message board instead of studying or praying or killing my liver like almost any other college student. Is this a sufficient answer?
Lib,
I have no particular love for my ethnic group, and would not have picked such an identity if I had the choice.
I despise people’s expectation that they’re entitled to my time and effort just because they share my ethnic background. I get especially irked by the intrusive asshats who offer to pray for me with the inkjet-cartridge looking thing with leather cords, mostly because they don’t try to convert the majority of the population like every other flavor of intrusive asshats.
I think the religion is absurd, as with all organized religion. They can pry my pork chops from my cold dead hands.
I don’t see why Israel should be America’s problem.
I think the anti-Holocaust denial laws in Europe are asshattery of the highest order, and whoever was behind them should go fuck a syphilitic goat. Ditto for the ADL, but they get slightly lower priority, and a goat with crabs ought to suffice if there’s a hircine shortage.
I tend to make a lot of anti-Semitic jokes. They’re funny the first few times, too.