# Ask the pissed off engineer. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 16, 2002, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pissed-off-engineer/143145 "2002-12-16T19:39:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pissed-off-engineer/143145/41 "2002-12-18T17:33:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Exgineer \* > \*\*. > Titles like “sanitation engineer” piss me off. “Maintenance Engineer” is worse in my mind, because it sounds like it means something like “facilities engineer” when it really just means “janitor.” > > Maybe I should just give a couple of personal anecdotes: > > 1. At a party, someone mentioned to someone else that I was an ME and I was told not to worry, because if I applied myself I was sure to work my way up to full-fledged auto mechanic. > > 2. When talking to a couple of dippy law students (don’t ask) about the Bar Exam, I mention something about the PE. They asked, “what’s a PE? Physical Education?” > > Am I really wrong for being annoyed? \*\* No, you’re not wrong, but I strongly suspect that you were being kidded with in Andecdote 1. Speaking of sanitation engineers, do real sanitation engineers exist? Who designs and manages sewage treatment facilities and the like? Did they once call themselves sanitation engineers, until that title was debased by the garbage collectors? ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pissed-off-engineer/143145/42 "2002-12-18T18:55:28Z")
I realize that the discussion here is winding down, but I finally found something I was looking for. From [the National Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying](http://www.ncees.org/introduction/about_ncees/model_law.pdf) Model Law: > [@](#): > > \*\* 110.20 Definitions\*\* > A. Engineer > > 1. Engineer – The term “Engineer,” within the intent of this Act, shall mean a person who is qualified to practice engineering by reason of special knowledge and use of the mathematical, physical, and engineering sciences and the principles and methods of engineering analysis and design, acquired by engineering education and engineering experience. > 2. Professional Engineer – The term “Professional Engineer,” as used in this Act, shall mean a person who has been duly licensed as a professional engineer by the board. The board may designate a professional engineer, on the basis of education, experience, and examination, as being licensed in a specific discipline or branch of engineering signifying the area in which the engineer has demonstrated competence. Note that the [National Society for Professional Engieering](http://www.nspe.org/govrel/gr2-4044.asp) endorses this model law. Anyway, the point is that this seems to make a clear distinction between “engineers” amd “professional engineers”; the former _not_ being required to be licensed. And that’s a little different than the definition given by the OP. -zut, PE ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pissed-off-engineer/143145/43 "2002-12-18T19:00:34Z")
What about my friend in California, who wasn’t even allowed to take the CA Civil Engineering exam? At the time, you needed a B.S. in Civil Engineering, plus 2 years’ supervised work experience. She wasn’t eligible, although she had an M.S. in Civil Engineering but only one year of experience. A legislative oversight, perhaps, but did it make her any less qualified as an engineer? It certainly kept her out of some good jobs. (FWIW, she passed the exam on the first try as soon as she was eligible, then quit shortly thereafter to become a combination Web designer/muralist/recent new mom.) ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pissed-off-engineer/143145/44 "2002-12-18T20:07:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by javaman \* > \*\*No, you’re not wrong, but I strongly suspect that you were being kidded with in Andecdote 1. > > Speaking of sanitation engineers, do real sanitation engineers exist? Who designs and manages sewage treatment facilities and the like? Did they once call themselves sanitation engineers, until that title was debased by the garbage collectors? \*\* #1) Nope. She was dead serious. #2) As far as sewage treatment goes, there was usually an ME or CE formally in charge of the plant, but many accredited institutions now offer a degree in “Environmental Engineering,” which seems to be a blend of CivE and ChemE. I think that the relevant PE liscence is Civil, but there may be a new one. As for design, MEs would have designed the stirrers in the digester (for example) and all the other turbo-machinery (pumps, grinders, etc.) and all the other equipment involving moving parts (conveyors, trash gates, etc.). CEs would design or specify all the piping and structual work (there is a _lot_ of concrete involved with those things). EEs would design the power service that makes the whole danged thing run. A lot of stuff there would be purchased by spec, but a lot more would have to be designed for the unique plant. Even the “bought on spec” stuff was designed by an engineer at some point. Look around when you go home tonight. Everything from the road you’re driving on to the traffic lights you stop for is the product of some engineer’s skull sweat. And when you get home and turn on the lights, thank the engineers who designed the power plant and distribution lines. Don’t get me started on the telephones. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pissed-off-engineer/143145/45 "2002-12-18T20:21:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Exgineer \* > **And when you get home and turn on the lights, thank the engineers who designed the power plant and distribution lines.** And those who keep the coal flowing and the fires going… ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pissed-off-engineer/143145/46 "2002-12-18T20:39:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > \*\*And those who keep the coal flowing and the fires going… \*\* Exactly. The job doesn’t end when the facility is built. We’re there to keep them running, and we’re there to decommission them when their service lives run out. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pissed-off-engineer/143145/47 "2002-12-18T20:49:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Exgineer \* > \*\* > Look around when you go home tonight. Everything from the road you’re driving on to the traffic lights you stop for is the product of some engineer’s skull sweat. > > And when you get home and turn on the lights, thank the engineers who designed the power plant and distribution lines. > \*\* You don’t need to tell me. I may disagree with you on some points of nomenclature, and how the laws governing it should be interpreted, but in fact I have tremendous respect for what you and your real colleagues do. I understand that the question of job titles is a sensitive one for you and I agree that the title engineer has been badly abused. \*\* > [@](#): > > Don’t get me started on the telephones. \*\* Actually the telephone system has always amazed me. Last night we had a power blackout in my neighborhood, but the phones worked as usual. I marvel at the fact that the system connects perhaps a billion homes, some multiple times. And the individual phones can operate on the system’s own power supply distributed over the same cables that carry the data. Good work, E.E.'s 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pissed-off-engineer/143145/48 "2002-12-18T20:51:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > \*\*And those who keep the coal flowing and the fires going… \*\* yes…and you too. ---
**Author:** ![Race\_Bannon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Race\_Bannon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Race_Bannon)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pissed-off-engineer/143145/49 "2002-12-19T00:09:44Z")
I’m late getting into this, but I’m very suprised that this topic generated so much interest. Here’s how you know if you’re a real engineer. If you’ve ever worked on (that is, designed, tested, specified, whatever) something such that you’re absolutely certain that if you screwed it up, then; a)people would die or, b)It would cost more than you’ll ever hope to earn in your life to clean up the mess. I don’t have a P.E. but I will claim the title under both above. In some cases, my own life was involved in a). [hey, this is the pit, grant me a little bravado] Seriously, in my 25 years in the aerospace business I’ve never run across a case of somebody needing a PE, and I’ve often wondered how, in my line of work, one would ever be needed. I have PE’s working for me, but I didn’t know they had the license until after they got on the job. None of this should be construed as a criticism of licensure - I fully understand the reasons and support the concept. I’d never try to pass myself off as a PE. Why did I never get licensed? Well, seriously, when I was in school the cost of the testing was worth a lot of pizza and beer money, so I just put it off. If they passed a law saying I needed to be a PE to do what I do, I’d not grumble - I’d take the test or get another job. I suspect it would be much harder for me now than it would’ve been when I was fresh out of school, though. The only thing I’ve done that might have come close to needing a PE was helping a friend of a friend do some testing on a homebuilt airplane, for which he paid me a day’s salary. Did I do wrong? Anyway, as far as the “software engineer” title goes, I always chuckle under my breath when I hear it. I do know real engineers (under my definition above) who work almost exclusively with software, but they’d never call themselves software engineers. They’re flight controls engineers, crewstation engineers, weapons or mission equipment engineers who work on things that just happen to be controlled by software. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pissed-off-engineer/143145/50 "2002-12-19T00:50:38Z")
> [@](#): > > If **Tamerlane** wants to call himself an “operating engineer” I won’t begin to kick. I don’t though ;). I understand your frustration and think you have some real justification for it. Though, strictly from my own viewpoint, it does kind of seem to fall more into the “minor irritance” pile, than the “rage-inducing” category. But we all have our pressure points, so obviously YMMV. As for sewage treatment plants ( and the wide wonderful world of water reclamation/recycling, where I am currently employed ), larger districts typically have slews of engineers. Mostly civil/environmental, but mechanical and electrical as well. At least in our municipality, I think most ( but not all ) direct design work is still contracted out ( this is starting to change ). But initial specs and analysis, oversite, change orders, and modifications get handled by the in-house folks. We are almost _always_ hiring new engineers. Heck we have three continuous openings right now( all Civil Engineers - Water Resource Planning, Office of Water Recycling, and Cost Estimating/Design Review). Anyone looking for a job :D? - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pissed-off-engineer/143145/51 "2002-12-19T01:33:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Race Bannon \* > \*\*Anyway, as far as the “software engineer” title goes, I always chuckle under my breath when I hear it. I do know real engineers (under my definition above) who work almost exclusively with software, but they’d never call themselves software engineers. They’re flight controls engineers, crewstation engineers, weapons or mission equipment engineers who work on things that just happen to be controlled by software. \*\* I don’t want anyone to get the impression that Devs call themselves “software engineers.” I also chuckle under my breath. No one I work with and no one I know in the undistry refers to themselves as software engineers. It’s just some BS title software companies use. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pissed-off-engineer/143145/52 "2002-12-19T05:55:12Z")
**Anthracite** & **Exgineer** , we are following each others’ dust trails here. We all know what the deal is, and WE don’t like it. ROFL let’s all take off for a year (as a body) an’ see what happens to the world !! j/k we care too much for civilization to do it. OTHERWISE I propose a DopeFest strictly for engineers. We can study the occurence of hydraulic jumps in long-necked beer bottles. 😃 BTW **Exgineer** , _how you doin???_ 😃 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pissed-off-engineer/143145/53 "2002-12-19T14:12:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Race Bannon \* > \*\*I’m late getting into this, but I’m very suprised that this topic generated so much interest. > > Here’s how you know if you’re a real engineer. If you’ve ever worked on (that is, designed, tested, specified, whatever) something such that you’re absolutely certain that if you screwed it up, then; > a)people would die or, > b)It would cost more than you’ll ever hope to earn in your life to clean up the mess. > \*\* of course…other jobs could say the same wrt both a and b, and I doubt if every aspect of what engineers do is so life-critical. There have been several of these discussions here over the years. ---
**Author:** ![PERRO68](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b5ac83/32.png) [@PERRO68](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PERRO68)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pissed-off-engineer/143145/54 "2002-12-19T15:44:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yabob \* > \*\*Well, I’ve called myself a “software engineer” for a couple decades, and I think I’m entitled to without no steenking license. I do have a degree, hell, I have a grad degree. These days, even my employer says I’m an “engineer”. I will admit that previous ones have said I was a “\ member of technical staff”. > > Seriously, software R&D is still something that there is no universally recognized professional organization or licensing board for (there are specific IT certifications like the MCSE, but those really aren’t the same thing). Most software R&D organizations will require a degree, but nothing forces them to, and back in the 80’s some Silicon Valley companies were directly recruiting out of college classrooms, actually telling people not to bother finishing their degrees, just come to work for them instead. What we do qualifies as “engineering” - we design stuff. That said designs are eventually realized with a compiler rather than a backhoe or even on a printed circuit board doesn’t change that. > > If not “engineer”, what DO you call the person that designs the browser you’re using to read this? > > (And thank me for the straight line if you use it.) \*\* I honestly do not care what u call them as long as it is not engineer. My problem is the devalueation (sp) of the term. and how people like to inject it in thier conversations. Meeting someone and telling them u are a Dr … when asked what u do means something… be nice to have engineer mean something to… as far as your educational background and type of work u do is concerned. ---
**Author:** ![tourbot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@tourbot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tourbot)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pissed-off-engineer/143145/55 "2002-12-19T15:58:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PERRO68 \* > \*\*I honestly do not care what u call them as long as it is not engineer. My problem is the devalueation (sp) of the term. > and how people like to inject it in thier conversations. Meeting someone and telling them u are a Dr … when asked what u do means something… be nice to have engineer mean something to… as far as your educational background and type of work u do is concerned. \*\* Well, I have a problem with the devaluation of proper grammatical usage and spelling. Guess we all have things we don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pissed-off-engineer/143145/56 "2002-12-19T21:28:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Race Bannon \* > \*\*Anyway, as far as the “software engineer” title goes, I always chuckle under my breath when I hear it. I do know real engineers (under my definition above) who work almost exclusively with software, but they’d never call themselves software engineers. They’re flight controls engineers, crewstation engineers, weapons or mission equipment engineers who work on things that just happen to be controlled by software. \*\* I don’t think it’s fair to be quite so dismissive of the term _software engineering_. A well designed application may require as much planning, configuration, and building work as a dam or a power station. Like **Dooku** said, however, I don’t think the job title software engineer is appropriate. I wonder if it’s time to develop some licensing standards for software development? Maybe something paralleling what engineers have, with the EIT and experience leading possibly to, oh, I don’t know, Professional Software Developer. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pissed-off-engineer/143145/57 "2002-12-19T21:34:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > \*\*And those who keep the coal flowing and the fires going… \*\* Sure, as long as you thank the engineers (none of them PEs) who designed the computer and processor with which you made your post, and designed the manufacturing processes that allowed fabrication of that processor. Yes, garbagemen calling themselves engineers is annoying - but at least it shows that engineering is a respected field. You don’t see anyone calling themselves politician, do you? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pissed-off-engineer/143145/58 "2002-12-19T23:29:09Z")
What the fuck, pardon me, is this about how there’s no such thing as an engineering degree for people who design software? There is, although it’s only existed for probably 5 years or so, and it’s called a B.Sc. Computer Engineering. One third of the technical requirement for that degree is typically in the field of proper design, planning, production and documentation of large scale software projects. Ten years ago it may have been true that there was no degree for that, but it isn’t true now. ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pissed-off-engineer/143145/59 "2002-12-19T23:48:02Z")
EECS has existed at UC Berkeley for at least 15 years. It stands for electrical engineering and computer science. There are several tracks you can take in it. One of them is very much Computer science with little electrical engineering. ---
**Author:** ![Race\_Bannon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Race\_Bannon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Race_Bannon)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pissed-off-engineer/143145/60 "2002-12-20T05:22:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by javaman \* > \*\*I don’t think it’s fair to be quite so dismissive of the term _software engineering_. A well designed application may require as much planning, configuration, and building work as a dam or a power station. Like **Dooku** said, however, I don’t think the job title software engineer is appropriate. > \*\* Well, we’re agreeing, but you missed my point. Screw up a dam or power station and it makes headline news. Screw up you well designed application, and, oh, well, maybe somebody has to reboot the machine. Anytime software is put in charge of something like a dam or power station, you can bet a team of real engineers has looked it over forwards and backwards. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pissed-off-engineer/143145.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-pissed-off-engineer/143145.md?page=4)