# Ask the Psychic **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 1, 2006, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-psychic/354953 "2006-05-01T14:20:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-psychic/354953/181 "2006-05-04T14:33:45Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > I think the disconnect here is that most people have a completely distorted idea of what “being psychic” really means. It ain’t a case of going _“whooo whooo whooo I see Willie Nelson swimming the English Channel in 2008.”_ Psychic powers are very elusive, and rarely reliable. I think that psychics have a completely distorted idea of what evidence is. How do you know psychic powers are elusive? How do you know they are rarely reliable? What separates an ‘elusive unreliable’ power from lucky guesses? > [@KGS](#): > > Skeptics like **ianzin** will NEVER believe in psychic abilities, it’s too challenging to their world view. Ianzin can convince an audience that he really has psychic powers. (He’s even written a book on it.) The big problem is that psychics who merely achieve the same level of results as Ianzin does using cold-reading have not produced any reason to beleive in the paranormal. > [@KGS](#): > > And even if **Czarcasm** really _does_ have a Bicentennial Quarter on his desk (what coin IS it, anyway??) he will merely claim I made a lucky guess. 😉 Well plenty of psychics make predictions. Most of these fail (they are promptly swept under the carpet). The remainder are claimed as proof. :rolleyes: Are you psychic? What level of success can you achieve? ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-psychic/354953/182 "2006-05-04T15:09:51Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > You wouldn’t happen to live in Nigeria, would you? No, and I’m quite serious. My family lost something that’s worth money, I was hoping you could help me locate it. If you can then you get half of what I would get. Seems like it would be free money to me. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-psychic/354953/183 "2006-05-04T15:21:26Z")
> [@glee](#): > > What separates an ‘elusive unreliable’ power from lucky guesses? I would _really_ like an answer to this, other than “you just know it.” ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-psychic/354953/184 "2006-05-04T16:19:09Z")
I hope this doesn’t sound too hostile, but … One of the reasons I don’t have confidence in self-described “psychics”, is that they don’t seem to believe in their abilities _themselves_. I mean … both I and **Czarcasm** have proposed a couple of very simple tests of **Lord Ashtar** ’s abilities. (I’ve even offered, twice now, to revise the test so that it matches up better with what **Lord Ashtar** says he can do. Offer still stands.) These are not, in any real sense, _scientific_ tests. If **Lord Ashtar** were to successfully pick out the number that’s (still) stuck to my computer, well, he had a 1 in a 100 chance anyway, it proves nothing. Conversely, if he got it wrong, well, nobody’s saying these psychic powers are reliable, are they? - so it still proves nothing. What does bug me, a bit, though, is that he wouldn’t even try. I mean, if I genuinely thought I had powers and abilities that transcended the currently accepted laws of physics, and somebody asked me to prove it, I’d at least _have a go_. So why won’t the psychics do the same? It wouldn’t prove your claimed abilities one way or the other, but it _would_ demonstrate, at the very least, that you had some actual confidence in them … My offer[s] still stand. Tell me the number on my computer. Or tell me something (concrete) about myself that you couldn’t know by other means. You might get it right, or you might not. But any self-described “psychic” who has the courage to _make the attempt_ would at least gain a certain amount of respect from me. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-psychic/354953/185 "2006-05-04T16:53:05Z")
[QUOTE=Steve Wright] … One of the reasons I don’t have confidence in self-described “psychics”, is that they don’t seem to believe in their abilities _themselves_… …I mean … both I and **Czarcasm** have proposed a couple of very simple tests of **Lord Ashtar** ’s abilities. (I’ve even offered, twice now, to revise the test so that it matches up better with what **Lord Ashtar** says he can do… …What does bug me, a bit, though, is that he wouldn’t even try… QUOTE] Indeed. I actually ran a test here on a pleasant poster who claimed to have **remote viewing** powers. We constructed a agreed protocol (e.g. using a Moderator as referee) and after nearly a year trying, he decided he didn’t actually have such powers. I already backed Ianzin’s claim to be an accomplished cold-reader. I’m an internationally rated chess player. You can find some threads where I play people, providing a running commentary. Why are psychics so reluctant to support their claims? ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-psychic/354953/186 "2006-05-04T17:00:52Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > So there’s no objective difference? Yes, you are right. The difference is completely subjective. However, to accept _only_ what can be objectively proven, is to deny the fact that our experience with this universe is 100% subjective. For instance…have you ever had a dream so real, that you thought you weren’t dreaming? What if you weren’t able to wake up from that dream? How could you tell the Dream World apart from the Real World? Seriously, some faiths believe this is true. > [@](#): > > You just threw these terms into the mix to sound good and you have not displayed the first fricken’ clue that you have any understanding at all that you know what the terms mean, what Quantum Science or Chaos Theory are and, (most definitely and most relevantly) that they have any connection at all to psychics. No, I threw those cites in because you claimed that those terms were meaningless. Read your post again. And I don’t claim to understand how Chaos Theory works, because NOBODY knows how it works yet. This is MPSIMS, not GQ or even GD. Of course, I may be wrong…if you have some secret hidden insight into how these sciences work, please delight us with your acumen. Or, write a book. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-psychic/354953/187 "2006-05-04T17:09:30Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > Incorrect. I will go wherever good evidence leads me. If only that were true. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Let’s get things in order. The first task is to see _if_ psychic powers work. _If_ they do, and if we can obtain good evidence that this is so, _then_ we can start to investigate how or why. No, you’ve got it backwards. FIRST, you find the evidence. THEN, you test the evidence, and come up with a conclusion (if any conclusion can be derived from the evidence.) That is how Scientific Method works, and I’m a little disturbed that you don’t understand that, especially since you’re arguing from the point of view of Science. > [@](#): > > By the way, the supposition that some aspect of Chaos Theory pertains to how psychic faculties might function is a myth. One has nothing to do with the other. And you know this…how? Your blanket dismissal isn’t Science, hell it’s not even a valid debate. And why even make that statement when you refuse to believe in psychic powers anyway?? ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-psychic/354953/188 "2006-05-04T17:25:33Z")
> [@glee](#): > > I think that psychics have a completely distorted idea of what evidence is. > How do you know psychic powers are elusive? > How do you know they are rarely reliable? > What separates an ‘elusive unreliable’ power from lucky guesses? Uhh…what kind of questions are these? I can’t follow your logic here. > [@](#): > > Ianzin can convince an audience that he really has psychic powers. (He’s even written a book on it.) AHA!!! So THAT’S where his prejudice comes from!! I should have known. All this time, he’s pretending to be fair & balanced, when in fact HIS CAREER depends on the non-existence of psychic power. That explains the denial, the evasive answers, and the barely concealed hostility. It all boils down to money in the end, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-psychic/354953/189 "2006-05-04T17:31:05Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Nope. I’m a firm believer in not using one’s powers for personal gain. OK, I’ll bite. What _are_ your powers? Give me an instance of something you’ve done or known that a non-psychic couldn’t have done or known. (And don’t play games with the definition of psychic, I mean someone such as yourself who believes they possess, cultivate, and use psychic abilities to a degree that others don’t). ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-psychic/354953/190 "2006-05-04T17:33:46Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > No, I threw those cites in because you claimed that those terms were meaningless. Read your post again. I read it. I cannot find where he said they were meaningless. Can you point me to it? > [@KGS](#): > > And I don’t claim to understand how Chaos Theory works, because NOBODY knows how it works yet. This is MPSIMS, not GQ or even GD. Of course, I may be wrong…if you have some secret hidden insight into how these sciences work, please delight us with your acumen. Or, write a book. The following poster has done just that. I find it telling that you chose not to respond to (her?) > [@lynne-42](#): > > I struggle to see the relevance to what you are arguing. I did my Masters degree based on Chaos Theory and have written and published on the topic. I have 4 years of university physics, and so feel I have a reasonable hold on quantum theory - well, as much as most non-quantum-physicists, and cannot see any link to psychic abilities. > > Because of my interest in the paranormal, as a skeptic, not a cynic, I have interviewed scientists in these fields about the link between quantum theory, multiple dimensions, chaos theory and paranormal claims. The scientists all - without exception - were offended by their area of science being degraded in this way. On preview– > [@KGS](#): > > Uhh…what kind of questions are these? I can’t follow your logic here. They are questions derived from affirmative statements you have made. > [@KGS](#): > > AHA!!! So THAT’S where his prejudice comes from!! I should have known. All this time, he’s pretending to be fair & balanced, when in fact HIS CAREER depends on the non-existence of psychic power. That explains the denial, the evasive answers, and the barely concealed hostility. > > It all boils down to money in the end, doesn’t it? You really, really, really don’t get it, do you? Care to show where **ianzin** is in denial, has provided evasive answers, or has shown hostility? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-psychic/354953/191 "2006-05-04T17:38:12Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > I don’t use the ignore list. > > I’ll ask you the same question I asked **ianzin**. What kind of evidence can I can provide you in this medium that you find convincing? How about let’s start with establishing what it is that you purport to be doing? We can’t really ask for evidence without knowing what we’re trying to prove or disprove. Define “psychic” and describe your psychic abilities. Tell us which of these could be performed by interacting through this forum. If this forum doesn’t work for those kinds of things, then you can just say so. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-psychic/354953/192 "2006-05-04T17:38:18Z")
> [@lynne-42](#): > > I have done hundreds of readings over the last five years and at times the ‘hits’ shock me. Because I am fascinated by the whole field, I initially did readings using Astrology and Tarot, as a non-believer, to explore why people believed in psychic abilites. At times I found myself unable to explain my own hits. Things just popped into my head. And, like my sitters, I only ever quoted the hits. > > So I created my own divination system. That way there could be nothing in the system but what I had made up. I used cold reading methods. The more I did it, the more accurate my readings became. I rarely give anything but a very convincing reading these days. I always explain to my sitters what I am doing - in advance - and it still works. Cold reading is extraordinarily powerful. It’s true, isn’t it? Sometimes, when I get a psychic reading, and I figure out right away (or, perhaps, months later) that it was mostly a Cold Read, I’m more impressed by the Cold Read itself, than any possible “gift” the reader might have had. > [@](#): > > Instinct, intuition - fine. If you want to call that ‘psychic’ then I have no argument. But I do nothing which is not comfortably within known science. I would not call instinct & intuition “psychic”, but they are definitely on the same page. Indeed, if/when psychic power is ever established objectively, it will probably just be a derivation of very strong intuition. It’s dangerous, though, to dismiss any theory because it does not conform to “known science”. Remember Semmelweis? The guy in the 1840’s who came up with this craaaazy theory about germs? He got thrown in a mental hospital, because of his whacky beliefs. I mean…think about it. These tiny, tiny critters that you can’t even see, make you get infected and die. Who would have known?? (And then, we invented microscopes…) > [@](#): > > Because of my interest in the paranormal, as a skeptic, not a cynic, I have interviewed scientists in these fields about the link between quantum theory, multiple dimensions, chaos theory and paranormal claims. The scientists all - without exception - were offended by their area of science being degraded in this way. Well, most scientists are inherently prejudiced against “psychic” power, so that doesn’t surprise me. (Blind devotion to Scientific Method, and all that.) As for Chaos Theory – and you seem the perfect person to ask 🙂 – it is my understanding, that the basic tenent of Chaos Theory is this: **“Very small changes in the initial conditions can create enormously different results.”** Am I right about that? ---
**Author:** ![Mikemike2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikemike2/32/305_2.png) [@Mikemike2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikemike2)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-psychic/354953/193 "2006-05-04T17:42:52Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Since we seem to be unable to get a real handle on exactly what it is that makes **Ashtar** psychic other than that he just knows it, would you mind expanding on your reservations about the merits of the challenge? I would also be very interesting in reading **ianzin’s** reservations about Randi’s million dollar challenge. I just re-read Ian’s excellent article [“Crassing Over With John Edward”](http://www.ianrowland.com/TheVault/JohnEdward1.html) in which Ian goes over the tape of one of John’s shows and demonstrates how John could be using cold reading in a way that should keep Ian free of lawsuits. Does Ian think there are problems with the challenge itself, or just whether it is useful in the fight against ignorance? I have found that I often refer to the challange when someone is talking about how the flavor of the month’s powers have been proven. The challenge is a shortcut way to say “put up or shut up.” **Steve Wright** , the number on your computer is **83**. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-psychic/354953/194 "2006-05-04T17:44:56Z")
> [@Mikemike2](#): > > **Steve Wright** , the number on your computer is **83**. It’s 17, actually. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-psychic/354953/195 "2006-05-04T17:48:30Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I read it. I cannot find where he said they were meaningless. Can you point me to it? Here it is, from post #168: > [@Princhester](#): > > _The mindset which dictates that terms used in discussion require definition to be useful is dysfunctional in this context._ Oops, he said “dysfunctional”, not “meaningless”. My bad! > [@](#): > > You really, really, really don’t get it, do you? No, I don’t get it. NOBODY in this thread “gets” it. Do you get it? If so, prove it. > [@](#): > > Care to show where **ianzin** is in denial, has provided evasive answers, or has shown hostility? Nope. Not that I can’t do it. Like you said, I just don’t care. Oh shit, I forgot to ask **Lynne42** : Okay, you’ve done psychic readings, and determined it all boils down to cold reading. Fair enough. I assume, then, you know all about chakras, grounding cords, “running your energy”, aura healing, and centering yourself. Do you define these as psychic powers? Because, personally, I do not. (They are a separate power altogether…meditation, basically.) ---
**Author:** ![Mikemike2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikemike2/32/305_2.png) [@Mikemike2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikemike2)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-psychic/354953/196 "2006-05-04T17:56:29Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > It’s 17, actually. Oh… well, damn. It would have been really cool if it was 83! ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-psychic/354953/197 "2006-05-04T18:11:17Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Here it is, from post #168:Oops, he said “dysfunctional”, not “meaningless”. My bad! Strike two, for two reasons. One, 'dysfunctional" and “meaningless” are not remotely the same thing. And if they were, strike two anyway because the word “dysfunctional” refers to **mindsets** , not **terms.** Read a bit more carefully. _Comprende?_ > [@KGS](#): > > Nope. Not that I can’t do it. Like you said, I just don’t care. I understand. You forswear the least effort to back up your words with evidence. If you care so little of your credibility why should anyone else? > [@Mikemike2](#): > > Oh… well, damn. It would have been really cool if it was 83! I was joshing. He has not revealed the number yet. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-psychic/354953/198 "2006-05-04T18:23:58Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Strike two, for two reasons. One, 'dysfunctional" and “meaningless” are not remotely the same thing. And if they were, strike two anyway because the word “dysfunctional” refers to **mindsets** , not **terms.** Read a bit more carefully. _Comprende?_ Are we reading the quote correctly? Here’s how I break it down: **1. The Mindset requires useful definitions of terms in this discussion. 2. The Mindset is dysfunctional.** I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that “The Mindset” refered to skeptics, NOT psychic supporters, because it’s the skeptics that are insisting on “useful definitions of terms” – especially, the meaning of “psychic”. Nobody but the skeptics are insisting on clearly defined terms. Therefore, the skeptic mindset – the one that insists on useful definitions of terms – is dysfunctional _in this context_. Not in general, but specific to this discussion, and this discussion alone. Maybe he did not mean to say it that way. But that’s exactly what he said. The words bear me out. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-psychic/354953/199 "2006-05-04T18:38:36Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Are we reading the quote correctly? Here’s how I break it down: > > **1. The Mindset requires useful definitions of terms in this discussion. > 2. The Mindset is dysfunctional.** What has mindset to do with anything? **Princhester** – > [@](#): > > You just threw these\*\* terms\*\* into the mix to sound good and you have not displayed the first fricken’ clue that you have any understanding at all that you know what the terms mean, what Quantum Science or Chaos Theory are and, (most definitely and most relevantly) that they have any connection at all to psychics. **You** – > [@](#): > > No, I threw those cites in because you claimed that those\*\* terms\*\* were meaningless. He refers to the **terms** “chaos theory” and “quantum effect.” You respond by saying your cite is a rebuttal of his assertion that the terms are meaningless. What has “dysfunctional mindset” to do with anything. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-psychic/354953/200 "2006-05-04T18:38:39Z")
If you guys can stop slugging each other for a minute, I’d like to hear one of the self-professed psychics tell us what sorts of things they’ve done that non-psychics wouldn’t be able to do. Without that, we don’t really have much basis to start with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-psychic/354953.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-psychic/354953.md?page=11)