# Ask the Randi $1M challenge applicant **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265 "2006-10-28T20:04:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/1 "2006-10-28T20:04:59Z")
I have decided to apply for the James Randi Million Dollar Challenge. People making claims are challenged by James Randi to prove them. Some of the claims are mental powers, such as telepathy. But note that some of the claims are “pseudoscience” i.e. scientific theories that Randi does not believe. An example of this may be seen [here](http://www.randi.org/jr/2006-06/060906just.html#i4) where someone claims that a magnetic clip will change the flavour of a bottle of wine. Randi does not believe the theory as stated, and issues the challenge “prove me wrong and win a million dollars.” The thus challenged person does not have to show a paranormal power, they have to prove the truth of their theory, and show that Randi is wrong in his disbelief. My claim is in the same category as the wine clip. I don’t claim any mental powers. It’s a theory that Randi does not believe. I state that certain geological phenomena exist. Randi does not believe me, and calls me “delusional” for believing in them. In a recent [column](http://www.randi.org/jr/2006-08/080406move.html#i6) he said _“This is the most pervasive of the delusions that dowsers have and promote endlessly, that there exist vast rivers of fresh water that run deep in the ground and can be easily tapped. There are large reservoirs of water there to be accessed, it’s true, but they are certainly not “flowing”; they’re pretty well stationary.”_ He has been making similar comments for at least 25 years. My claim is a simple one. I say that water does in fact move underground (e pur si muove) and a few related things. James Randi does not believe my claims, he says that I am “delusional” for believing them, and has challenged me to demonstrate them. His comments and others like them put my claim into the same category of paranormal as the wine clip. Note that I don’t claim this is paranormal … Randi does, though, and the fact that he thinks so makes my application legitimate. A successful demonstration will not prove that I have any magic powers, it will only prove that Randi is wrong. But under the terms of his challenge, that is enough. You can follow the progress of my claim at [www.proverandiwrong.net](http://www.proverandiwrong.net) I invite questions from the dopers. You can ask me anything you like. Straightforward questions will receive a straightforward answer. But note the following ground rules: 1. Ask about MY application, and nobody else’s. I’m not going to get into any debates about Randi’s general merits. 2. I shall not respond to belligerence. 3. Ask questions, don’t state your opinion and try to start a debate. 4. Simple questions only. No long, essay type questions. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/2 "2006-10-28T20:50:35Z")
I’m with Mr. Randi here. I have no real idea what you are claiming here. If I had to guess, it looks like you are taking a statement by Randi out of context, and then refining the definitions of the words he used to turn that statement into a falsehood. For example your claim seems to revolve around this statement: > [@Randi](#): > > I challenge all the dowsers in a similar way. Since 94 percent of the Earth’s surface has water within drillable distance my challenge is to find a dry spot! They don’t want to do it. Why? Because they only have a six percent chance of success. Dowsing is an idiomotor reaction that is very deceptive. It is an unconscious motion that you cannot detect and it looks for all the world like some mysterious force. Which is a sensible statement. If you dig deep enough you will find water anywhere. I don’t know if his statement is completely accurate, but that’s not really the point of the Randi challenge. It’s not find a statement by Randi that is factually incorrect. It is: > [@](#): > > At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. What paranormal, supernatural, or occult powers are you claiming? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/3 "2006-10-28T20:52:36Z")
The obvious (to me, at least) question is, how will you prove it? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/4 "2006-10-28T20:58:05Z")
[QUOTE=treis] I’m with Mr. Randi here. I have no real idea what you are claiming here. [/quote] That is not a question. As I said, I’m not going to get into arguments here. I’ll answer direct questions. other non-questions snipped. > [@](#): > > What paranormal, supernatural, or occult powers are you claiming? None, as I said. It’s not a **power** I’m demonstrating, it’s a scientific theory. Many of the people challenged by Randi are challenged to prove their theories. The specific theory is that water flows underground. James Randi does not believe this, and calls me “delusional” for thinink it. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/5 "2006-10-28T21:07:08Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] None, as I said. It’s not a **power** I’m demonstrating, it’s a scientific theory. Many of the people challenged by Randi are challenged to prove their theories. The specific theory is that water flows underground. James Randi does not believe this, and calls me “delusional” for thinink it. [/QUOTE] I fail to see how this falls under the scope of the Randi challenge then. The requirements of the challenge specifically state supernatural, occult, or paranormal powers/events. Since your claim does not involve any of these powers, the Randi challenge does not apply. Do you have any examples of past challenges that do not involve either supernatural, occult, or paranormal powers/events? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/6 "2006-10-28T21:09:19Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] The specific theory is that water flows underground. James Randi does not believe this, and calls me “delusional” for think it. [/QUOTE] I know you don’t want to debate but can you elaborate just a little. I know for a fact as well that water “flows” underground. Springs have been popular forever and I have one on my property. Water just bubbles up from nowhere like a magic stream that just reached its end of an underground journey. Many large caves have streams in them with no close access to the surface and they go for a long way. That part doesn’t seem controversial to me at all. Given enough time, I believe that underground water molecule A will move quite a distance. What types of water movement are we talking about here? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/7 "2006-10-28T21:11:58Z")
[QUOTE=treis] I fail to see how this falls under the scope of the Randi challenge then. The requirements of the challenge specifically state supernatural, occult, or paranormal powers/events. Since your claim does not involve any of these powers, the Randi challenge does not apply. {/quote] That’s not a question. I’m not going to argue about it. > [@](#): > > Do you have any examples of past challenges that do not involve either supernatural, occult, or paranormal powers/events? Yes, many. As I noted in my OP, Randi’s challenge agaist the wine magnets. They express a scientific theory that Randi does not believe. If they are telling the truth, then it’s not supernatural, it’s normal, and Randi is mistaken not to agree. My claim is in the same category. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/8 "2006-10-28T21:13:47Z")
What is the “scientific theory” that you are demonstrating? What hypothesis do you hope to prove? ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/9 "2006-10-28T21:15:06Z")
[QUOTE=treis] If I had to guess, it looks like you are taking a statement by Randi out of context, and then refining the definitions of the words he used to turn that statement into a falsehood. [/QUOTE] That’s exactly what he’s doing. He’s been doing this for quite some time now. He has somehow convinced himself of something that no reasonable person could honestly believe, and nothing will persuade him otherwise. This, coupled with a so far unexplained dislike of James Randi, combine to give birth to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/10 "2006-10-28T21:17:50Z")
I don’t understand. Is this the crux of your claim? – You claim water flows underground, and Randi says it doesn’t? Is this correct, or is there something you would care to add to it or sutract from it? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/11 "2006-10-28T21:18:49Z")
[QUOTE=Shagnasty] I know you don’t want to debate but can you elaborate just a little. I know for a fact as well that water “flows” underground. [/QUOTE] Randi does not agree, and calls you “delusional” for thinking that. I intend to prove that “delusion” true. That’s all. That’s all the elaboration needed. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/12 "2006-10-28T21:21:19Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] What is the “scientific theory” that you are demonstrating? What hypothesis do you hope to prove? [/QUOTE] I intend to demonstrate that water flows along underground channels, a claim which is a “delusion” according to Randi. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/13 "2006-10-28T21:22:36Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] [QUOTE=treis] I fail to see how this falls under the scope of the Randi challenge then. The requirements of the challenge specifically state supernatural, occult, or paranormal powers/events. Since your claim does not involve any of these powers, the Randi challenge does not apply. {/quote] That’s not a question. I’m not going to argue about it. [/quote] Fine, I’ll rephrase. The requirements of the challenge specifically state supernatural, occult, or paranormal powers/events. Since your claim does not involve any of these powers, why do you think the Randi challenge applies? [QUOTE=Peter Morris] Yes, many. As I noted in my OP, Randi’s challenge agaist the wine magnets. They express a scientific theory that Randi does not believe. If they are telling the truth, then it’s not supernatural, it’s normal, and Randi is mistaken not to agree. My claim is in the same category. [/QUOTE] Randi says this: > [@Randi](#): > > I’m astonished that none of these devices have snapped up the JREF’s million-dollar prize. The reason that such flummeries are eligible for the prize, is that if any of the claims were true, they would – by definition – be paranormal. Or magical… Do you claim a mechanism for this water flow that could be argued to be paranormal or magical? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/14 "2006-10-28T21:24:57Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] That’s exactly what he’s doing. He’s been doing this for quite some time now. He has somehow convinced himself of something that no reasonable person could honestly believe, and nothing will persuade him otherwise. This, coupled with a so far unexplained dislike of James Randi, combine to give birth to this thread. [/QUOTE] Not a question, and I’m not going to argue or try to convince you I’m right. But, folks, this is what it’s all about. Randi and his supporters think my claim is “something that no reasonable person could honestly believe” and as such is paranormal by their standards. Priceguy, since you are convinced I’m wrong, why not contact Randi and urge him to take me on. That would help me a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/15 "2006-10-28T21:25:09Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] I intend to demonstrate that water flows along underground channels, a claim which is a “delusion” according to Randi. [/QUOTE] What specific part of the challenge do you believe your attempt qualifies under? That is, could you quote the passage or passages from the challenge that you believe make your attempt eligible for the prize? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/16 "2006-10-28T21:26:45Z")
[QUOTE=treis] [QUOTE=Peter Morris] Do you claim a mechanism for this water flow that could be argued to be paranormal or magical? [/QUOTE] No, but Randi says it’s unknown to geological science. That’s all that’s needed. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/17 "2006-10-28T21:28:21Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] Priceguy, since you are convinced I’m wrong [/QUOTE] I’m not, and I’m still (years after we last spoke about this, I believe) sick tired of trying to explain it to you. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/18 "2006-10-28T21:28:46Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] [QUOTE=treis] No, but Randi says it’s unknown to geological science. That’s all that’s needed. [/QUOTE] No it’s not. Let me repeat the requirements for the contest: > [@](#): > > At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. Again, what specifically about your claim is a paranormal, supernatural, or occult power/event? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/19 "2006-10-28T21:29:49Z")
And another question: who do you consider to be the definitive authority on what Randi meant by the quoted passage? To be clear, if Randi claims he meant something other than what you believe he meant, is it possible that you will consider your case no longer eligible? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/20 "2006-10-28T21:31:21Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] To be clear, if Randi claims he meant something other than what you believe he meant, is it possible that you will consider your case no longer eligible? [/QUOTE] Fat chance. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265.md?page=2)