# Ask the Randi $1M challenge applicant **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265 "2006-10-28T20:04:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/241 "2006-10-29T20:13:11Z")
For the record, neither of these two questions have been answered: What did the Dowsers mean by underground rivers? Can you show where Randi has said that he considers all bogus science to be paranormal or pseudoscience? For the first you responded by asking me what I thought underground rivers. That is not an answer to the question. For the second you said you didn’t have do, but I didn’t ask if you had to, I asked if you could. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/242 "2006-10-29T20:14:15Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] I claim the ability to pick spots at random, \*\*consult a geological \*\ ***survey** , and show that there is no water “in a practical sense” at the spot so picked. Now, I think this is easy to do. I think anyone can do it. I say that there is nothing paranormal about it. James Randi does not believe my claim, and has issued a challenge to prove it. \*\* "Find me a dry spot because, it’s almost impossible not to strike water if you drill deep enough. "\*\* [http://www.bestfilmfests.com/review-divining-mom.htm](http://www.bestfilmfests.com/review-divining-mom.htm) And I have accepted the challenge he has set. I will find him that dry spot he wants. This is what the challenge is about. Randi states his disbelief in claims, demands that people prove them, and offers a million dollar prize for success. He has expressed his disbelief, issued the challenge, and I am fully at liberty to accept. [/QUOTE] (Added`emphasis mine) His “challenge” hinges on "drilling deep enough, not “consult[ing] geolgical surveys.” Do really not see that this a substantial altering of his words, something that you are on record as being against? He is talking about drilling through rock. You are talking about map reading. Do you think that the two are equivalent? If not, why do feel free to make the substitution. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/243 "2006-10-29T20:15:17Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] Every time he talks about dowsers he will come out with the same stuff. He always leads his supporters in laughing at them for being stupid and delusional because they believe in underground rivers. One of his central arguments against dowsers goes : - dowsers believe in underground rivers - underground rivers don’t exist [/QUOTE] > [@James Randi](#): > > real underground streams can occour I believe I will not be violating great debates rules when I say that, unless there is significant difference between an underground stream and an underground river, you are a liar. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/244 "2006-10-29T20:16:40Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] **I claim the ability to pick spots at random,** consult a geological survey, and show that there is no water “in a practical sense” at the spot so picked. Now, I think this is easy to do. I think anyone can do it. I say that **there is nothing paranormal about it.** [/quote] Then, by the official rules, you do not qualify to be a challenger. Why do you insist on persuing this action? (bolding mine) ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/245 "2006-10-29T20:19:10Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] That is an outright lie on your part. You know very well Idon’t think that. What I have said indicates nothing of the sort, but you invent opinions for me. The moderators have been informed. [/QUOTE] Given your own track record in this specific department, you do _not_ want to go down that road. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/246 "2006-10-29T20:26:55Z")
**Peter Morris** , Given the following example: There is a woman who is explaining how to paint a house to some people who don’t know how. She further states that you need to be wary of people who will offer to paint your house for you, who don’t have a license. And further she says that people who don’t have a license can’t actually paint at all, and she will pay you X dollars to anyone who finds a person who isn’t licensed, but who can paint. As she is saying all this, another man overhears this and also where the woman comments that the house they are looking at is “yellow”. The house is, however, “tan”, as anyone can see. But the woman uses the term yellow simply because it’s close enough and the people she is talking to aren’t the most exciting people in the world and probably only know the primary colors. Now, the man who overhears all this, for whatever reason, comes to the conclusion that: 1. He isn’t licensed 2. But he knows the house is tan, not yellow 3. Thus, even though he doesn’t know how to paint, he can prove that she doesn’t know what she is talking about. 4. Since he isn’t licensed, and the only stipulation is for the challenge is that the lady disagree with the person, so long as he can prove the house is tan and not yellow, she has to pay him X dollars. So now, my question is: Why do you think that Mr. Randi admitting that there are underwater rivers, flowing through underwater caves, but also saying that this is irrelevant to Dowsing because wells can be built on 94% of all land and **don’t require** these underwater streams, is at all relevant to you, his challenge, or possibly will make him want to give you a million dollars when his whole point is to prove that Dowsers are wrong, not to give a technically precise descriptions of underground water flow for the teeming millions? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/247 "2006-10-29T20:29:49Z")
Dang, **Peter** , I just read the cite from where the Randi quote was mined. It was a documentary film! About the filmmakers parents, one of whom dowses, one of whom dowse not.! One sentence from a flm is a challenge? And specifically, an invitation to the JREF Challenge? I gotta call bullshit on that. You have provided absolutely no context for this statement. This citation is useless. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/248 "2006-10-29T21:06:01Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] False. Read post #226. [/QUOTE] sigh. So, Randi once wrtote an article saying that : - less than 1% of underground water flows, - that it ONLY happens in limestone, - and flow rate is restricted to a few feet per year. Not a \*huge \*difference from the other statements he’s made where he said that water does not flow at all. Now, I say that there are plenty of other places that water flows underground. Not all of it is limestone. I say that it flows through beds of sand and gravel, through cracks in solid rock such as granite, in paleochannels and lava tubes and all sorts of other structures. And the flow rate is a lot more than a few feet per year. Would you agree that Randi’s words in post#226 deny the existence of such things? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/249 "2006-10-29T21:08:32Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] YOu gave me an answer, true, but it was not an answer to my question. [/QUOTE] Yes it was. Stop pretending it wasn’t. Asked and answered. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/250 "2006-10-29T21:08:46Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] And the flow rate is a lot more than a few feet per year. [/QUOTE] Do you read? > [@James Randi](#): > > Underground flow can also occur in porous material, but **that flow** amounts to only a few feet or a few miles in a year. My emphasis. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/251 "2006-10-29T21:11:55Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] sigh. So, Randi once wrtote an article saying that : - less than 1% of underground water flows, - that it ONLY happens in limestone, - and flow rate is restricted to a few feet per year. [/quote] False. Here’s what Randi actually said: > [@Randi](#): > > That small fraction is confined to areas rich in limestone (known as “karst” country) and the resulting caves, where real underground streams can occour. Underground flow can also occur in porous material, but that flow amounts to only a few feet or a few miles in a year. Most water that is obtained by measns of wells and so forth is in pools and resevoirs underground. It does not flow. So it can occur in limestone (and he doesn’t talk about the rate of flow at all when discussing flow through limestone caves), AND it can occur in porous material (where it can flow as much as a few miles in a year). > [@Peter](#): > > Now, I say that there are plenty of other places that water flows underground. Not all of it is limestone. I say that it flows through beds of sand and gravel, through cracks in solid rock such as granite, in paleochannels and lava tubes and all sorts of other structures. And the flow rate is a lot more than a few feet per year. > > Would you agree that Randi’s words in post#226 deny the existence of such things? Beds of sand and gravel are porous. Cracks in solid rock, paleo channels, lava tubes, and so forth are not. Whether his words deny the existence of such things is ambiguous, but you may well be right that he denied them. In such a case, it would be helpful to ask him, “Randi, do you believe that water sometimes flows underground through lava tubes?” If he says, “Of course it does,” then you have no case: he’s corrected an error in speech. If he continues to deny that water sometimes flows underground through lava tubes, AND if he claims that a demonstration of such flow would constitute paranormal power, then you have a case. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/252 "2006-10-29T21:13:16Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] Yes it was. Stop pretending it wasn’t. Asked and answered. [/QUOTE] I’m pretending nothing. The only conceivable answer I can derive from that is that you’re proposing Clarke as the authority on randi’s meaning, and you’ve denied that’s what you meant. You’re just blatantly wrong on this; whether it’s a lie or a delusion is beyond my ken. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/253 "2006-10-29T21:13:58Z")
Three questions for Peter. 1. Is the purpose of this thread at least partially an attempt to make money from ad revenue generated by people visiting your site? 2. If not true, can you stop linking to your site as answers to questions? 3. If it is true, wouldn’t you be better off adding a forum section to the site? Regarding the third, while you’d definitely be made fun of by just about every visitor who happened upon the site, you’d at least get a great bump in page views. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/254 "2006-10-29T21:16:03Z")
[QUOTE=DMC] 1. Is the purpose of this thread at least partially an attempt to make money from ad revenue generated by people visiting your site? [/QUOTE] Wow, that didn’t even occur to me. That’s a pretty corrupt approach to debate, if you’re right. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/255 "2006-10-29T21:25:57Z")
[QUOTE=treis] For the record, neither of these two questions have been answered: What did the Dowsers mean by underground rivers? Can you show where Randi has said that he considers all bogus science to be paranormal or pseudoscience? For the first you responded by asking me what I thought underground rivers. That is not an answer to the question. For the second you said you didn’t have do, but I didn’t ask if you had to, I asked if you could. [/QUOTE] First question - I am not a mind reader, I can’t tell you what other people meant and if the term “underground rivers” means anything other than “rivers that are under the ground” then I can’t help you. Second question. I never claimed he said that, it has no connection to my application, it has no relevence to me at all. If it matters to you, then YOU do the research. It makes no difference to me. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/256 "2006-10-29T21:26:10Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] Wow, that didn’t even occur to me. That’s a pretty corrupt approach to debate, if you’re right. Daniel [/QUOTE] I should have wondered about that when I made the pit thread (all are invited to the roast): > **[Ask Peter Morris if he is a Liar or a Troll or just tell him.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=394125)** > > A Liar or a Troll? For the lying option, check these posts on page 5 on that thread:: You have a funny definition of ‘never’. Randi, from Flim-Flam, (already quoted at least twice in this thread) What are we to make of this definition you have... In any case, I have seen enough lies from **Peter Morris** to not bother anymore here. Will come back here when he stops tap dancing to \*\*Priceguy’s \*\* posts. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/257 "2006-10-29T21:27:47Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] Would you agree that Randi’s words in post#226 deny the existence of such things? [/QUOTE] I would agree that his words deny it, but as the Left Hand has stated, this is most likely an issue of speaking with too many sweeping statements. He is probably correct that only 1% of underground water flows, and that **most** of that is limitted to limestone. That he omitted the word “most” is not cause for him to give you a million dollars. It just means that he had a brain fart. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/258 "2006-10-29T21:35:10Z")
[QUOTE=Musicat] Then, by the official rules, you do not qualify to be a challenger. Why do you insist on persuing this action? (bolding mine) [/QUOTE] You obviously don’t follow the rules. Many of the people challenged by Randi say that their claim isn’t paranormal. Randi tells them to apply anyway, and they will win the prize as long as their claim is true - paranormal or not. see : [http://www.proverandiwrong.net/about.aspx](http://www.proverandiwrong.net/about.aspx) for some examples of this. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/259 "2006-10-29T21:50:00Z")
So… We know what you are trying to prove. We know that nothing you are trying to prove particularly conflicts with what Randi has ever said (beyond nitpicky stuff.) And we know that you’ve applied anyways. So, what exactly are you hoping we will ask you? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/260 "2006-10-29T21:52:48Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. Is the purpose of this thread at least partially an attempt to make money from ad revenue generated by people visiting your site? Oh, that’s part of the purpose of the website, all right. What of that? Do you imagine that Randi ISN’T motivated in large part by attempting to make money from the JREF? You do realise that a considerable portion of JREF expense is the money Randi pays himself, don’t you. But the main purpose of this thread is to allow me to tell my side of the story. I knew that if I didn’t do so, Miskatonik or Musicat or someone of their ilk would start a much nastier thread about it. And, BTW, I got the mods permission before doing so. > **[Linking to your own website](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=392789)** > > Just want to check the rules on this before I do it. Are there any rules forbidding linking to your own website? I have set up a website in which I discuss a certain controversial issue. I state my own opinion on the matter. This issue comes up... They talked among themselves, then emailed me permission to post my thread. > [@](#): > > 1. If not true, can you stop linking to your site as answers to questions? no, my site sets out the answers to many questions you might have. > [@](#): > > 1. If it is true, wouldn’t you be better off adding a forum section to the site? something to consider, for the future. > [@](#): > > Regarding the third, while you’d definitely be made fun of by just about every visitor who happened upon the site, you’d at least get a great bump in page views. doesn’t bother me if people agree with me or not. I’m perfectly happy for them to think I’m wrong and Randi is right. If YOU believe he’s right and I’m wrong, then by all means email him and urge him to take me on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265.md?page=14)