# Ask the Randi $1M challenge applicant **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265 "2006-10-28T20:04:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/61 "2006-10-28T23:58:18Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] No, not at all. Poorly phrased. In your experience, has he stated that Randi has issued a direct challenge to him? [/QUOTE] Not as far as I remember, no. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/62 "2006-10-28T23:58:30Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] Please stop misquoting me. I never claimed that he had challenged ME specifically. I’m saying that he challenges the specific claims I’m making. His challenge applies to ANYONE making those claims. [/QUOTE] Fine, please show me in those rules where he extends a specific challenge to prove your specific claims. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2006, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/63 "2006-10-28T23:59:43Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] Please stop misquoting me. I never claimed that he had challenged ME specifically. I’m saying that he challenges the specific claims I’m making. His challenge applies to ANYONE making those claims. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=You, in this very thread] My claim is a similar [theory/ statement of fact] that Randi does not believe, and has **challenged me** to prove. [/QUOTE] Emphasis mine. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/64 "2006-10-29T00:06:03Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] As I understand it, such a person would not be entitled to the prize. [/QUOTE] Well, that’s a pretty big flaw in the concept of the challenge then, isn’t it? Nice little scam Randi has going there, if you’re right. Randi says “I don’t believe your product works, prove it” If they accept, and prove their product works, randi says “turns out I’m wrong, but it’s not paranormal” and refuses to pay up. Is that what you think? Do you wonder if this has in fact happened a few times? What would be the point of anyone accepting his challenge then? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/65 "2006-10-29T00:14:49Z")
[QUOTE=treis] Fine, please show me in those rules where he extends a specific challenge to prove your specific claims. [/QUOTE] He doesn’t and I never said he did. Please stop misquoting me. The many challenges he issued were in his articles, lectures and books going back 25 years and not in the rules. Partial list on my website. [http://www.proverandiwrong.net/claims.aspx](http://www.proverandiwrong.net/claims.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/66 "2006-10-29T00:15:15Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] (e pur si muove) [/QUOTE] Before you make a fool of yourself in a public forum, Galileo never said that. I think it was attributed to him by Voltaire. (I seem to recall that a misreading of Voltaire is what put the words “Let them eat cake.” into the mouth of Marie Antoinette.) In a larger sense, some real kooks have claimed a special kinship with Galileo: People who honestly need medical help, as opposed to people who merely hold odd ideas. This is something to keep in mind if you want to go public with this in a real way. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/67 "2006-10-29T00:16:31Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] What would be the point of anyone accepting his challenge then? [/QUOTE] Even if it is as you say, all the applicant would have to do is claim that it is. Lintgen said himself that his ability was not paranormal. And, again, the case is from a time before the million dollar challenge. I don’t know how this would work today. > [@](#): > > Do you wonder if this has in fact happened a few times? No, since no-one has so far passed preliminary testing. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/68 "2006-10-29T00:17:31Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] I shan’t ask it again, then. I will state that it has indeed been asked, but never answered. [/QUOTE] Answered several times. You don’t like the answer. That’s not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/69 "2006-10-29T00:18:32Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] Well, that’s a pretty big flaw in the concept of the challenge then, isn’t it? Nice little scam Randi has going there, if you’re right. Randi says “I don’t believe your product works, prove it” If they accept, and prove their product works, randi says “turns out I’m wrong, but it’s not paranormal” and refuses to pay up. Is that what you think? Do you wonder if this has in fact happened a few times? What would be the point of anyone accepting his challenge then? [/QUOTE] As I understand the process, the scenario above would NOT happen. At the preliminary stages of the challenge, there would be an agreement about what specific events or actions would be demonstrated. If they are, the prize is won; if not, it isn’t. There’s no attempt AT THE DEMONSTRATION to distinguish between paranormal and not paranormal. Now, whether the challenge would actually reach that stage is a different story. Hint: no. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/70 "2006-10-29T00:20:34Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] He doesn’t and I never said he did. Please stop misquoting me. The many challenges he issued were in his articles, lectures and books going back 25 years and not in the rules. Partial list on my website. [http://www.proverandiwrong.net/claims.aspx](http://www.proverandiwrong.net/claims.aspx) [/QUOTE] Excuse me. Since we were in the midst of discussing whether or not your claim applied to the formal challenge I believed that your claim of a specific challenge related to that. Now that I realize that it doesn’t relate at all to the million dollar challenge we can drop it. Back to the beginning of this line, we go: > [@Peter Morris](#): > > or : If bogus science then paranormal. The facts you provided don’t support that conclusion. You have shown that Randi thinks that pseudoscience is paranormal, but you have not shown that Randi considers all junk science to be pseudoscience or paranormal. Can you show where Randi has said that he considers all bogus science to be paranormal or pseudoscience? This time can you please limit your response to those that would qualify for the million dollar challenge. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/71 "2006-10-29T00:24:11Z")
[QUOTE=Derleth] Before you make a fool of yourself in a public forum, Galileo never said that. [/QUOTE] Actually, the phrase has been found inscribed on a portrait of Galileo that was painted during his lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/72 "2006-10-29T00:24:48Z")
**Peter** , OK, here goes. The link you provided is a long one. I am going to assume that the salient portions are here. > [@](#): > > Ben Killerby, whose site [http://www.killerby.com.au/rituals\_scams.htm](http://www.killerby.com.au/rituals_scams.htm) pretty well explains his grounding in reason and rationality, shares with us this incomprehensible description of the “MagicFlavor Plug-in Magnetizing Dispenser for Red Wine and Brandy.” Folks, you just can’t invent such crapiola… > > I need to explain to you a bit about how our newly-invented product works. The wines are made of grapes, the grape skin, seed and stems containing Tannin. Tannin is compounded with phenol or flavour. The wine is aged by oxidation of this compound which will be chemically combined one by one by oxidation to form a chain of molecules. The longer the chain is and the older the wine is. Our product is just a magnetizer. When a conductive fluid (in this case wine) passes through a magnetic field, an electrical charge is created. Our device is having a di-pole where the fluid will be cut through the magnetic field 90 degree with respect to the line of field. Once it is cut through the field, an ionization is induced on the molecules, hence each group of phenol will lose a hydrogen and have a (minus) charge. This effect will course [sic] the ionized groups of molecules to form a virtual chain which will be physically similar to the aged wine. The effect will only last for 15 days but it is enough time for drinking. You can call our product as [sic] “Age wine instantly using magnetic”. You can take a young, callow, brash and uncouth bottle of cheap red wine or brandy, use our Plug-in Magnetizing Dispenser on it, and the result will allegedly [sic] be… well, not Grange, but distinctly better than it was. And here. > [@](#): > > After reading all this heated exchange, I thought I’d simply repeat the long-standing challenge of the James Randi Educational Foundation: we will pay US$1,000,000 to anyone who can tell the difference between wine that has been treated with ANY of the so-called “Wine Magnet” devices, and the same wine not so treated. It should take less that a day [sic] to perform a comprehensive set of tests, and the potential payoff is a million dollars – plus my personal, abject, apologies for having doubted the applicants. Please spare me the usual assortment of excuses and alibis; the prize money is available for immediate payout in the form of negotiable bonds, those involved in the testing would be independent experts chosen by the applicants, and all procedures would be covered in detail by media recording. If the above is incorrect, please enlighten me. You said – > [@](#): > > Now, in the event of such a thing happening, would that guy be entitled to claim the prize? Even though he hasn’t done anything paranormal? > > Really, please do answer that question. Because my claim is exactly the same as that. I honestly do not know whether that guy would be entitled to such a prize. It would hang, I suppose, on whether Randi has the authority to substantially alter the conditions of the Challege. His statement is clearly not a "repeat [of] the long standing challenge of the [JREF]. Said challenge has been cited at least once in this thread. If Randi is authorized on a case by case basis to substantially alter the wording of the challenge (the original says nothing about wine, for example, or how it tastes) then yes, that fellow would win the prize. I fail to see how that extrapolates to your claim. I rather suspect that Randi is a bit loose with his rhetoric at times. In any event, all he was doing was suggesting a test protocol that would be acceptable to the JREF. Anyone who does such would be doomed to failure, I suspect, no matter what the claim. One strength of the challenge, in my opinion, is that the claimant gets to say what and how things will happen. In all honesty, I fail to see how this applies to your claim, unless your are saying that A) Randi’s statement is an actual amendment to the challenge. B) Said amendment includes and encompasses all similar claims to the prize. > [@](#): > > Answered several times. You don’t like the answer. That’s not the same thing. Since it now appears that you are responding to statements, I will trouble you for one example where you have responded to me with an answer. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/73 "2006-10-29T00:26:29Z")
[QUOTE=treis] Can you show where Randi has said that he considers all bogus science to be paranormal or pseudoscience? . [/QUOTE] Asked and answered. Several times. You don’t agree with the answer. That’s your right. I’m not going to argue. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/74 "2006-10-29T00:27:45Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] **Peter** , OK, here goes.Since it now appears that you are responding to statements, I will trouble you for one example where you have responded to me with an answer. [/QUOTE] Asked and answered. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/75 "2006-10-29T00:29:41Z")
**Peter** , what will you do with the million should you agree to a challenge with Randi and win it? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/76 "2006-10-29T00:30:46Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] Asked and answered. Several times. You don’t agree with the answer. That’s your right. I’m not going to argue. [/QUOTE] Where? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/77 "2006-10-29T00:32:27Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] Asked and answered. [/QUOTE] What would it hurt to point out just one example? Have you been hounded beyond forebearance on this point alone? Surely you expected a bit of a rough go with your OP. Is this brick the last in the hod? You will need sterner stuff to win the prize, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/78 "2006-10-29T00:41:14Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] True, but I’ll answer it anyway. That won’t happen. Randi is well known as a man of honour. I’ve had long discussions with **Priceguy** and others of his ilk, and I’ve become wholly convinced of that. Once Randi has issued a challenge, it’s issued and he won’t back away from it. He’s committed, both morally and legally. The challenge is a legally binding contract from which he can’t run away, even if he wanted to. And he wouldn’t even if he could. [/QUOTE] You need to read the rules again. It doesn’t work the way you think it does. You and Randi have to agree on terms and conditions of the test. I’m saying that ain’t gonna happen. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/79 "2006-10-29T00:42:24Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] **Peter** , what will you do with the million should you agree to a challenge with Randi and win it? [/QUOTE] Ah, a _real_ question. That’s more like it. first thing - pay off my mortgage. Then I’ll travel round the World, there’s a hundred places I want to visit before I die. After that, go back home and work for a living. A million would solve a lot of problems, but I couldn’t live on it forever. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/80 "2006-10-29T00:47:36Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Have you been hounded beyond forebearance on this point alone? [/QUOTE] No, but I’ve had experience discussing with Randi supporters before. Especially **Princhester** who will be along in a while, no doubt. It gets tied up in tedious and pointless discussions about whether “water flows underground” is a **theory** or a **statement** and I’ve decided to cut the crap in this thread. I’ll answer your questions - once only, and that’s it. If you don’t like the answer, I won’t waste time trying to convince you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265.md?page=5)