# Ask the Randi $1M challenge applicant **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265 "2006-10-28T20:04:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/121 "2006-10-29T14:26:14Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] This is a very important point: not everything that Randi says that can be interpreted as a challenge may justly be interpreted as a challenge related to his $1 million JREF challenge. He might say, “Look at this diner! It’s filthy! Just try and find a clean table in here!” I will not win a million bucks by finding a clean table. [/QUOTE] except that in this case his words are unabiguously a direct challenge. See : [http://www.proverandiwrong.net/claims.aspx](http://www.proverandiwrong.net/claims.aspx) Randi’s exact words from his Caltech lecture : **\<\< I challenge all the dowsers in a similar way. Since 94 percent of the Earth’s surface has water within drillable distance my challenge is to find a dry spot! They don’t want to do it. Why? Because theyonly have a six percent chance of success. \>\>** See, all I’m doing is accepting a challenge that he has made to many dowsers before me. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/122 "2006-10-29T14:28:48Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] I have a few names in mind, starting with Arthur C. Clarke. He’s a friend of Randi, but I think he can be trusted to make an honest, impartial and intelligent decision in any matter of dispute. [/QUOTE] To be perfectly clear–are you saying that the definitive authority on what James Randi means by his words is **Arthur C. Clarke**? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/123 "2006-10-29T14:30:55Z")
[QUOTE=spingears] It appears you are claiming that all underground water is coming from somewhere and going to somewhere else. [/QUOTE] I most certainly do not. I claim that SOME underground water flows. Not all of it. The rest of your question, based on a strawman, is irrelevent. ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/124 "2006-10-29T14:33:52Z")
How will you find a dry spot? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/125 "2006-10-29T14:43:47Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] To be perfectly clear–are you saying that the definitive authority on what James Randi means by his words is **Arthur C. Clarke**? [/QUOTE] Actually, I’d like an answer to this and to a follow-up question. If, **prior to acceptance of the challenge** , it turns out that you and Randi disagree on something **you** said that’s relevant to the challenge (e.g., let’s say that Randi believes you’re claiming you can find an underground river 24% of the time by drilling down 10 feet into the earth), who do you think will be the definitive authority on what you actually mean–you, Randi, or Arthur C. Clarke? If Clarke sides with Randi on the meaning of your own words, will you be willing to let those words fundamentally change what you believe you intended the challenge to be? And one more question in this series. I can understand a mechanism by which Randi is the definitive authority on what he meant when he said something: his brain formulated his words, transmitting them via motor neurons to his fingers, which typed them out. His brain remembers what it was thinking when it thought the ideas that were translated into words. What mechanism do you propose by which Arthur C. Clarke would be a better authority for Randi’s meaning than Randi himself? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/126 "2006-10-29T14:47:40Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] If I knew that, I’d be either a mind rerader or a fortune teller, and entitled to the million dollars anyway. [/QUOTE] You are correct. But i’m not asking whether you \*know \* - whether you can look into the future and tell - but what you guess, what you predict. You’ve had a correspondance with Randi, you’re familiar with his normal operating methods and his writing, and you know your own claim. So; do you believe that Randi will act discreditably or honourably? > [@](#): > > Since I’m just responding to a specific challenge issued by Randi, my method is totally reasonable. If you think otherwise, it speaks about your own flawed judgement. Your question, then, is a non-sequitor. You have hit upon the crux of the matter. Clearly you believe that all of us, who disagree with the method as being reasonable, as having flawed judgements. So when Randi replies, and you spread news of whatever his reply was, we’re all going to jump to your side and vilify/praise Randi for what he’s done! Except that no, we’re not. If we’re right, and your method is unreasonable, then the results are likely not reasonable too. On the other hand, if you are right, and your methods are totally reasonable, _that does not mean that we think so_. You have to care about our opinions, because without us saying “Yes, that method seems reasonable”, you can write up your web page telling us all about the truth with Randi and we’re going to go “And? You used a bad method!”. Whether the fault is on our end or yours - doesn’t matter one jot. You have to _convince_ us you’re correct. You’ve got to correct our bad judgement. Because if we don’t, then the only one who’ll believe the results is you; and that ain’t publicity, mon ami. Do you get what i’m driving at? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/127 "2006-10-29T14:54:37Z")
Randi will not reply. He cut off correspondence with Peter over two years ago, for reasons that I suspect are obvious to everyone, including Peter himself. Note these lines from his second email: > [@Randi](#): > > I have never suggested, to any individual dowser, that he/she find a dry spot. That was a general figure of speech. Use a little common sense. > > Forget the “dry spot” figure of speech. It never comes up. Apparently Peter believes that Randi is incorrect as to the meaning of his words. It is therefore incumbent on Peter to obtain correspondence from Arthur C. Clarke in which Mr. Clarke sides with one or the other of them–i.e., either says that Randi knows when he’s speaking figuratively, or that Randi does not know when he is speaking figuratively. Until Peter has contacted Mr. Clarke and obtained an opinion agreeing with him, he’s dead in the water. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/128 "2006-10-29T14:56:18Z")
[QUOTE=Auntbeast] I’m unable to find your application on the JREF site. Could you provide a link to show it has been received? [/quote] I dare say Randi will be talking about it in his commentry soon enough. > [@](#): > > I sense a history here of you having issue with James Randi. > > 1. Have you had prior applications? > 2. Did you post about them here? > 3. Were they welcomed as warmly as this one has? This is my only formal application. I don’t claim to have any psychic powers. > [@](#): > > 1. Do you honestly believe that a site called the “Straight Dope Message Board” would be unlikely to ask specific questions regarding your application and belief? (I use belief since you don’t seem to process the definitions of “theory” and “fact” very well) I welcome the serious questions. However, silly nit-picking the matter of “theory” and “fact” is just pointless. > [@](#): > > 1. To many, this seems a major issue of picking and choosing Randi’s words, rather than a valid claim, is this merely a loophole you think you have found and chosen to exploit? Hardly, this is a central theme of Randi’s. Almost every time he talks about dowsing he waffles on about underground rivers or dry spots or both. He has been talking about it over and over for 25 years, repeatedly issueing the challenge. Take a look at : [http://www.proverandiwrong.net/claims.aspx](http://www.proverandiwrong.net/claims.aspx) Far from being a loophole, this is a central part of Randi’s talks. > [@](#): > > 1. Do you have any degrees or college education or professional experience with geology or any other field that would lend you creedence to your claim? No, but before I applied I consulted several people that do have relevent degrees. I adjusted my claim according to what they told me. Maybe I misunderstood them. It’s a possibility I had considered, and am prepared to accept. If you believe I’m wrong, write to Randi and ask him to conduct the test, prove I’m wrong and hold me up to public ridicule as “delusional.” > [@](#): > > 1. Could you please post a link to your application on JREF’s site, rather than your own as soon as it is processed? JREF no longer publishes applications on the website, see : [http://tinyurl.com/y8zhvl](http://tinyurl.com/y8zhvl) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/129 "2006-10-29T15:02:32Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] No, but before I applied I consulted several people that do have relevent degrees. I adjusted my claim according to what they told me. [/QUOTE] Have you spoken with any linguists or cognitive psychologists? That’s not a slam against you; rather, I think the problem with your challenge is that it hinges on a linguistic misinterpretation, by which you believe Randi disbelieves in something patently obvious, when in reality he holds no such disbelief. It might behoove you to talk with someone who has an advanced degree in figuring out what people are thinking. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/130 "2006-10-29T15:10:21Z")
[QUOTE=Walter Windchill] How will you find a dry spot? [/QUOTE] Not roll it through baking flour? ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/131 "2006-10-29T15:14:22Z")
That’s how you find a wet spot, PA. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/132 "2006-10-29T15:16:56Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] So, what you’re saying is that my claim is unknown to science? And that if I demonstrate it true I have shown something that science rejected? That ought to be worth a million, shouldn’t it. [/QUOTE] Wow. That was a ansty and deceptive bit of deceptive selective quoting you just pulled off. Here, let me post it all for you again: > [@](#): > > "Dowsers have the strange notion that water travels in underground rivers and will happily trace these torrents for you. But geologists know otherwise. Bob Huguley, a geologist who works for the Planning Board of Monmouth County, New Jersey, doesn’t know if one dowser in the area who has ever been successful. He also estimates that less than 1 percent of the earth’s underground water actually flows beneath the surface. That small fraction is confined to areas rich in limestone (known as “karst” country) and the resulting caves, where real underground streams can occour. Underground flow can also occur in porous material, but that flow amounts to only a few feet or a few miles in a year. Most water that is obtained by measns of wells and so forth is in pools and resevoirs underground. It does not flow. Given the level of dishonestly you just replied with, I feel confindent in saying that Randi is well witin his rights to refuse all communication with you. Sorry, no question. Just pointing out your intellectual dishonesty. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/133 "2006-10-29T15:26:01Z")
Peter, earlier you dismissed the word ‘vast’ in the phrase ‘vast rivers of fresh water’ as essentially meaningless. I believe that you did so incorrectly. The phrase appears to be stating many large rivers underground of fresh water, not simply that they exist, but that they are common. Did you note the previous comments about limestone and underground rivers? Did you note that chalk is a version of limestone? [http://www.boxhill.org.uk/visitors/river\_mole.html](http://www.boxhill.org.uk/visitors/river_mole.html) ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/134 "2006-10-29T15:36:56Z")
[QUOTE=Walter Windchill] That’s how you find a wet spot, PA. [/QUOTE] That’s why \*\*PA \*\*said “not.” ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/135 "2006-10-29T15:40:05Z")
[QUOTE=glee] 1. Have you sent your application in to the JREF? [/quote] [QUOTE=Peter Morris] Yup. Read my website. Application sent, notarized, signed sealed and delivered. [/quote] I don’t want to read your website. [QUOTE=glee] 1. Which ‘psychic, supernatural or paranormal ability’ (as per the terms of the challenge) are you claiming to demonstrate? [QUOTE=Peter Morris] The ability to show that : 1. water flows underground 2. underground rivers exist. 3. good spots for a well are hard to find 4. “dry spots” are ten a penny Each of which is “pseudoscience” according to Randi, and pseudoscience is paranormal according to precedent. [/quote] Showing underground rivers exist is a paranormal ability? 😕 Have you considered the chain of logic that led you to this conclusion? This is on a par with you entering a messageboard devoted to fighting ignorance and setting conditions on what you will discuss and how. :rolleyes: [QUOTE=glee] 1. Did you write this on the James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF) website? [/quote] [QUOTE=Peter Morris] Yes, but that is not a question about my application. [/quote] [QUOTE=glee] 1. Have you posted written many such criticisms of Randi’s accuracy on the JREF website? [/quote] [QUOTE=Peter Morris] See previous answer. [/quote] Well it proves you have an animus with Randi and are prepared to mangle logic to try to prove your ‘case’. You’re not interested in testing a paranormal theory, just obsessed with the meaning of a couple of phrases used by Randi. [QUOTE=glee] 1. Where in the JREF Challenge does it say you have to ‘prove the truth of a theory’? [/quote] [QUOTE=Peter Morris] It’s precedent set by many challenges issued by Randi. A few of them are listed on my Website. [/quote] And is it listed anywhere on the Randi website? [QUOTE=glee] 1. Has the ‘magnetic clip changes taste of wine’ been tested in any scientific way? If not, why is it simply not a paranormal claim? [/quote] [QUOTE=Peter Morris] Can’t answer that. See my groundrules. I’ll answer questions about my own claim, but I won’t argue about anyone else’s [/quote] Don’t you realise that there is a paranormal claim here? Unlike yours. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/136 "2006-10-29T16:01:27Z")
[QUOTE=Roland Orzabal] With this is mind, I have two questions. My apologies ahead of time for the somewhat belabored wording below, but I did want ensure that I encompassed everything into an inquiry rather than phrasing any portion as a statement. [/quote] Thank you for actually asking a serious, sensible and relevent question, Roland. Just for future reference, you can make statements as part of your questions, provided they are serious questions. The thing I object to is people offering their opinions, and trying to start an argument over whose point of view is correct. I’m not going to respond to that. > [@](#): > > [snip for reasons of length] > > If I’ve missed something, perhaps a past statement from Randi that contradicts his current stance on the definiton of “dry spot”, that would serve to justify your continued use of the less restrictive definition for purposes of your claim, by all means please point it out in your reponse to my questions and I’ll gladly retract the above. At present, though, I am truly confused as to why you believe your claim to be valid. Roland, it’s a sensible question, but requires a long answer. I don’t wan’t to be writing any long essays, (see my ground rules in the OP) so I can’t answer every one of your points individually. I’ll comment about the matter briefly. I tried to discuss the matter sensibly with James Randi. I made every reasonable effort to establish a mutually satisfactory definition of the term “dry spot.” Randi was hostile and unresponsive from the first moment.During the course of our discussion, he made several contradictory and mutually exclusive statements. Consider his earlier demand **“You tell me what you can do, and you define the parameters. That’s required of everyone”** and when I gave him my parameters he responded **“That’s YOUR term, not mine.”** Bit of a contradiction there. Another contradiction: he first defined a dry spot as\*\* “water is not to be found in a practical sense”\*\* then later changed it to \*\* “Water is not usable water.”\*\* He was generally evasive during the discussion, and refused toactually give me a proper definition of the term which he would find acceptable, thus leaving me free to choose my own definition. I’ve based my definition on what he said. And where he has contradicted himself, I feel morally entitled to choose the one most advantagous to me. Also, note that the definition in my application is not written in stone. It is a starting point for negotiations. I am willing to discuss the matter with Randi to come to a mutually agreeable definition. Provided, of course, that he is willing to talk sensibly about it. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/137 "2006-10-29T16:05:25Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] To be perfectly clear–are you saying that the definitive authority on what James Randi means by his words is **Arthur C. Clarke**? [/QUOTE] Total strawman. You know I didn’t say that. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/138 "2006-10-29T16:07:56Z")
[QUOTE=Walter Windchill] How will you find a dry spot? [/QUOTE] detailed protocol listed on my application. [http://www.proverandiwrong.net/Application.aspx](http://www.proverandiwrong.net/Application.aspx) I’ll use a random number table to pick spots at random. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/139 "2006-10-29T16:11:10Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] Actually, I’d like an answer to this and to a follow-up question. If, **prior to acceptance of the challenge** , it turns out that you and Randi disagree on something **you** said that’s relevant to the challenge (e.g., let’s say that Randi believes you’re claiming you can find an underground river 24% of the time by drilling down 10 feet into the earth), who do you think will be the definitive authority on what you actually mean–you, Randi, or Arthur C. Clarke? [/QUOTE] Well, since the meaning of my words are not sensibly in doubt, the question is irrelevent. But yes, if Randi chose that particularly stupid interpretation of my words, I’d be happy for Clarke to point out to Randi how stupid his comment is. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265/140 "2006-10-29T16:12:58Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] Total strawman. You know I didn’t say that. [/QUOTE] A question is not a strawman, it is a question. Apparently I was wrong, and I can accept that; that’s, after all, why I asked: to clarify. What, then, is the answer to my previous question: > [@](#): > > Who will you consider to be the definitive authority on his intended meaning in his earlier communications? The answer should, I think, consist of nothing other than a name. If you cannot give a single name as an answer to this question, the follow-up question is, why not? Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ask-the-randi-1m-challenge-applicant/378265.md?page=8)